Author Topic: Who Do You Believe?  (Read 4847 times)

Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 05:57:08 AM »
The best way to honor victims of 9/11 would be to arrest George W, Dick Cheney et al for collaborating with Saudi Arabia. 

George W, Dick Cheney et al have done some bad things, but 9/11 is NOT on that list. Committing another travesty as you are advocating is the last thing that would honor those victims.

Offline Baruch

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 06:48:23 AM »
Yes, the Administration at that time wasn't flying the planes into the Towers ... otherwise we could have skipped the rest of that Administration.  But the whole thing of helping Saudis escape from the US after Saudis did bad things ... says the Administration was driving the get away car.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 11:32:44 PM by Baruch »
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Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 07:00:26 AM »
Yes, the Administration at that time wasn't flying the planes into the Towers ... otherwise we could have skipped the rest of that Administration.  But the whole think of helping Saudis escape from the US after Saudis did bad things ... says the Administration was driving the get away car.

You're saying that if one Saudi commits a crime, all Saudis are guilty. Weird that you who continuously fear of being a victim of injustices have a twisted desire to punish the innocent.

Offline Baruch

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 07:17:10 AM »
Saudis innocent?  Bwahaha ... don't make me laugh while eating eye ball of sheep as aphrodisiac to keep up with four wives!  May a camel spider drive you from your tent, infidel!  We Semites make US presidents dance for us and kiss our robed asses, while being payed many dinars for black pollution under pristine sand.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 11:33:23 PM by Baruch »
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Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 07:48:27 AM »
Saudis innocent?  Bwahaha ... don't make me laugh while eating eye ball of sheep as aphrodisiac to keep up with four wives!  May a camel spider drive you from your tent, infidel!  We Semites make US presidents dance for us and kiss our robed asses, while paying many dinars for black pollution under pristine sand.

Thanks for the info, asshole bigot.

Offline Baruch

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 11:35:19 PM »
So now you are protecting the royalists in Arabia too?  How many wives did they promise you? ;-))  The average Saudi isn't the millionaire I was talking about ... or their domestic slaves from S Asia and Indonesia.  Yes, I am bigoted against royal shits of all kinds ... it is medieval wherever found.
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Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2015, 08:57:09 AM »
So now you are protecting the royalists in Arabia too?  How many wives did they promise you? ;-))  The average Saudi isn't the millionaire I was talking about ... or their domestic slaves from S Asia and Indonesia.  Yes, I am bigoted against royal shits of all kinds ... it is medieval wherever found.

No asshole, you keep making the same mistakes over and over. I'm not speaking of the Royal Saudis, but the average Saudi, which you were mocking, who has to live through a terrible repressive regime .

Offline Solitary (OP)

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2015, 11:20:12 AM »
Unfortunately, 9/11 is perfect ground for CT'ers.

Solitary, I don't understand why you think the words of a single person should take that much importance when thousands of professionals and experts have made their studies well known. 
You do realize that is appealing to the crowd. I never said I agreed, it was asking a question. I remember when our government killed people in New York with biological weapons, and how they have used service men as guinea pigs with psychotropic drugs during Vietnam. Also the video is of a man that was there when it happen, and an expert that saw melted steel as have others that were actually there.. A fire from airplane fuel cannot melt steel. The day it happened everyone thought, because of how the news presented it, they saw the first plane hit the towers. This would have been impossible, they used different views of the second plane. How do you explain a metal building that wasn't hit by a plane burning to the ground. The Bush administration wasn't past doing anything while they got us into a war  based on a lie that is still going on. I will listen to experts that were there, not so-called experts paid by the government to give their opinion.  I have worked with bar joists that were used on the Twin Towers, and realize they will bend and collapse when heated hot enough like experts have said, but the elevator shafts were made of steal posts that do not melt or collapse from a fuel fire, even if the outside walls come down. Did the Empire State building collapse from a fire when a bomber hit it?  Did the steel melt from the fire?
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2015, 11:36:45 AM »
You do realize that is appealing to the crowd. I never said I agreed, it was asking a question. I remember when our government killed people in New York with biological weapons, and how they have used service men as guinea pigs with psychotropic drugs during Vietnam. Also the video is of a man that was there when it happen, and an expert that saw melted steel as have others that were actually there.. A fire from airplane fuel cannot melt steel. The day it happened everyone thought, because of how the news presented it, they saw the first plane hit the towers. This would have been impossible, they used different views of the second plane. How do you explain a metal building that wasn't hit by a plane burning to the ground. The Bush administration wasn't past doing anything while they got us into a war  based on a lie that is still going on. I will listen to experts that were there, not so-called experts paid by the government to give their opinion.  I have worked with bar joists that were used on the Twin Towers, and realize they will bend and collapse when heated hot enough like experts have said, but the elevator shafts were made of steal posts that do not melt or collapse from a fuel fire, even if the outside walls come down. Did the Empire State building collapse from a fire when a bomber hit it?  Did the steel melt from the fire?

Extreme heat can cause structural collapse in steel. It is well-documented and has been observed in many other cases.

Offline Solitary (OP)

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2015, 11:58:39 AM »
That is what I said and agree with the experts, but fuel will not cause steel to melt in a normal fire because it doesn't get hot enough.  The bottom floors way below the fire collapsed, the elevator shaft columns were holding up the entire building, but collapsed and melted from the walls falling down?  At no time in history has a metal building collapsed from a fire. I know and explainned how  bar joists can weaken and slip off their mountings like the experts say, but there is no way steel columns can collapse that hold up an entire building that were not even in a fire. The guy in the video was a trained expert in building fires, not just a man on the street.
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2015, 12:08:41 PM »
I don't believe anyone. My biggest question is, what was the motivation for the US to stop the attack? I don't see any reason the US would have wanted to stop the attack. I see no motivation for them to stop the attack. That doesn't necessarily mean they purposely let the attack happen, but I see no reason for them to want to stop it.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a030399newpearlharbor&scale=0#a030399newpearlharbor

March 3, 1999: New Pearl Harbor Needed to Change US Military Policies, Says Expert

Andrew Krepinevich, Executive Director of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, testifies before the Senate Armed Services Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities: “There appears to be general agreement concerning the need to transform the US military into a significantly different kind of force from that which emerged victorious from the Cold and Gulf Wars. Yet this verbal support has not been translated into a defense program supporting transformation… the ‘critical mass’ needed to effect it has not yet been achieved. One may conclude that, in the absence of a strong external shock to the United States—a latter-day ‘Pearl Harbor’ of sorts—surmounting the barriers to transformation will likely prove a long, arduous process.” [US CONGRESS, 3/5/1999] This is very similar to what strategists at PNAC have said (see June 3, 1997).


The neo-cons said they needed a Pearl Harbor like event, so when just that was gifted to them in their laps, why would they want to stop exactly what they've been saying they need to implement their agenda? Were psychopaths Bush and Cheney running for office not to implement their agenda? Why would they want to stop 9/11 and hurt their own agenda going forward in a massive way?

Now, of course it can't be proved that they wanted it to happen, but I don't see why people should be called idiots for thinking that maybe, just maybe, the neo-con psychopaths who jerk off to millions of dead bodies overseas might not be being completely honest about what happened that day. No one gets called an idiot when they say Bush lied to get into Iraq. Can we prove that for certain though? Maybe Bush didn't lie and he was just acting on bad intelligence? Where is the proof that he lied?

In the end, it doesn't really matter if Bush and Cheney let 9/11 happen. If they had nothing to do with it, they are still pretty much just as bad. They've done far worse than 9/11 so it doesn't really matter. Invading Iraq is far worse than letting a few fairly insignificant poor souls be sacrificed. We may never really know, but who really cares? Even if the US government has been telling us the complete truth when it comes to 9/11, the Americans are still the biggest terrorists in the world and the biggest threat to peace in the world. I don't like how truthers are so sure of themselves, but I can respect that they are anti-war.

Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2015, 12:31:23 PM »
That is what I said and agree with the experts, but fuel will not cause steel to melt in a normal fire because it doesn't get hot enough.  The bottom floors way below the fire collapsed, the elevator shaft columns were holding up the entire building, but collapsed and melted from the walls falling down?  At no time in history has a metal building collapsed from a fire. I know and explainned how  bar joists can weaken and slip off their mountings like the experts say, but there is no way steel columns can collapse that hold up an entire building that were not even in a fire. The guy in the video was a trained expert in building fires, not just a man on the street.

Unless you can prove that there is no way a building can collapse under such circumstances, you are just speculating.

EDIT: Don't forget the impact of the shockwave. That was heard by many who were there and heard it fractions of a second just before the collapse
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 12:43:57 PM by josephpalazzo »

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2015, 02:28:23 PM »
That is what I said and agree with the experts, but fuel will not cause steel to melt in a normal fire because it doesn't get hot enough.
Steel doesn't have to melt to loose so much strength as to be not able to support a weight. Blacksmiths have known this for centuries. After all, it's part of how they work.

The bottom floors way below the fire collapsed, the elevator shaft columns were holding up the entire building, but collapsed and melted from the walls falling down?  At no time in history has a metal building collapsed from a fire.
Bullshit.

-1997, three 4-story buildings at the Kader Toy Factory in Singapore caught fire. All three collapsed from fire alone under two hours.
-2000, the Dogwood Elementary School in Virginia caught fire, resulting in the fire-affected sections collapsing in under half an hour.
-2005, fires broke out on the steel-framed Mumbai High North Platform, causing it to completely collapsed in two hours.
-2005, the top 11 floors of the Windsor Building in Madrid, the only part of the building that was steel-framed, was the only part to collapse and from fire alone (except the concrete inner core).
-April 2007, sections of Interstate 580 collapsed from fire alone.

The fact that fire can, indeed, collapse steel-framed structures (as demonstrated most dramatically in the WTC) is the reason why the World Financial Center, the new WTC7, and the Freedom Tower are being designed with a concrete core and concrete-engased outer columns. All of these structural engineers are putting their money where their mouth is.

I know and explainned how  bar joists can weaken and slip off their mountings like the experts say, but there is no way steel columns can collapse that hold up an entire building that were not even in a fire.
You do know that fire spreads, right? Especially when there's no sprinkler system to douse them (because of cut water mains).

Also, when the fire-heated parts collapse, the load above goes from dead to live load, which is significantly harder to deal with than a static load that the columns were actually designed to support. The potential energy of the towers were enormous, and as towers get higher, the relative structural strength of the materials shrink.
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Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2015, 03:03:45 PM »
A fire from airplane fuel cannot melt steel.

Re: Who Do You Believe?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2015, 06:26:02 PM »
You're saying that if one Saudi commits a crime, all Saudis are guilty. Weird that you who continuously fear of being a victim of injustices have a twisted desire to punish the innocent.
What if 16/17 out of 19 were Saudi's?  And you don't think Bush and Co. were not actively searching for a way to attack Iraq?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?