Oregon Shooting

[Baruch]

How many gun owners do you actually know personally?

I own, I know others who own ... some of whom have gun-philia ;-(  Knowing thousands more wouldn't change anything.  I don't want to have a gun, but circumstances have led to my having some.  On the other hand, I have no reason to trust the criminals or the cops ... both are dangerously lunatic and armed.  If I had to kill someone, I would rather use a dull knife and do it slowly .. but I would rather avoid the whole situation ... stay out of trouble, and hope my luck will hold awhile longer.  And no, I don't have any Dirty Harry fantasies ;-)

I saw a guy the other day at a restaurant ... he was packing a handgun.  Didn't bother me a bit.  But I didn't challenge him to prove his license for open carry ... and I made damn sure I didn't accidentally spill my ice tea on him ;-))  America is Tombstone 1882 ... and the Cowboys and Lawmen are straddling both sides of the law ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGNdnlCbfMs

[TopCat]

So the GOP refuses to address guns but have no problem taking away women's rights,  non white, and non christian rights.  Also the I am christian hastage is stupid as fuck. Apparently Christians are saying that we should all die for Christ because the reward in heaven will be good. I saw an article that basically tells parents of victims they should be happy their kid is with God. Sick

[Johan]

What's the matter? I point out truthfully that you're a liar, and a hypocrite and you spit the dummy? I'll add asshole and crybaby to your list of credentials. Get the fuck over YOURSELF! Dick.

What did I fucking lie about? You said the number of mass murders halted by civilians was zero. And I said, wait for it.... Not true. That is all I said. Please show me how the words 'not true' are a fucking lie.

[hrdlr110]

You posted a link saying the number is 12 - also not true. Read your own link,  not all were civilians. Given the number of mass shootings in the last 30 years, my zero vs your tiny percentage represented by your <12 isn't very significant - certainly not significant enough to call me a liar. And you did.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

I think one of the problems with counting mass shootings that have been stopped is that a mass shooting stopped before it happens is not a mass shooting.

That being said I can't help but find it reactionary when the conversation only seems to happen after one, and when it's mainly geared towards assault rifles.

Very few people are killed in mass shootings compared to overall murders.

Most people killed by gun murders are killed by pistols. Most people killed knew their killer in some way. A good amount were poor. Interestingly enough, more people die by gun suicides than by murders.

[stromboli]

Mass murderers for some reason don't attack uniformed cops at a 7-11 or attack an NRA convention or a gun show but for some reason attack children in schools or a community college where there are no armed guards. Or a theater full of teenagers or a high school. Thing is, it isn't a high noon thing with Gary Cooper it is an attack against the unarmed and the defenseless. Which speaks to the type of person who does it.

Perhaps there might be something in a screening process that would look at backgrounds on people to see if there were reasons not to sell them firearms. Rather than, say, create ways to sell more guns faster.

[Youssuf Ramadan]

This shit will carry on as long as America continues to see dead kids as an acceptable price for owning a tool whose primary function is killing.

[Johan]

You posted a link saying the number is 12 - also not true. Read your own link,  not all were civilians. Given the number of mass shootings in the last 30 years, my zero vs your tiny percentage represented by your <12 isn't very significant - certainly not significant enough to call me a liar. And you did.

Fair enough then. How 'bout this. You were wrong. Happy now?

[Johan]

Perhaps there might be something in a screening process that would look at backgrounds on people to see if there were reasons not to sell them firearms. Rather than, say, create ways to sell more guns faster.

Perhaps there should. The problem of course is that lots of mass murders are committed with weapons which belong to someone other than the murderer. Its still a good idea to do some kind of screening to try to disqualify those who are emotionally unstable or whatnot. But we can't expect that alone to solve the problem.

And that's probably one of the reasons this issue is so tough to crack. Because there is no one single solution. There is no one single law that would solve the problem. You need a group of different laws which all work in tandem with one another. You also need something which much more difficult to achieve. You need a fundamental shift in the culture. And I'm not talking about the gun culture here. I'm talking about whatever that thing is which exists in our current culture that makes certain suicidal people want to hurt others and make headlines in the course of carrying out their suicide. We need to figure out where that attraction comes from and then figure out how to eliminate it from our culture.

That, or a complete and absolute ban. But if you're going to go for a ban, you'd better be able to show in no uncertain terms how your ban is going to eliminate every single last illegally owned gun from the street BEFORE you go after any of the legally owned guns or you could be in for quite an uprising IMO.

[drunkenshoe]

I mean, I had a Latin Surname (diDio, eventually changed it because of harassment), I have a "foreign" first name, before I was adopted I was raised by a mother who's family was only about 10 years off the boat, grew up around Mexicans (who were culturally more similar to me than the whites), I had best friends whom's parents were illegal and lived in fear of deportation, who lived in shacks of two small rooms and about 6-7 people...I got harassed by the whites for not being "white" like them growing up (and often by the Hispanics for not being brown like them), grew up on the ghetto/bario side of the tracks... all in a town where I got to see rather constant drug related violence and don't think I went more than a year or two without one or more class mates getting shot... and once got to see a black man get pulled down main street with a rope around his ankles while the white guys driving hooted and hollered... a town where I was pulled over multiple times for "looking suspicious" and to do "routine drug searches"...

But yeah, tell me more about my life, please. Tell me more about how "white-y" me couldn't possibly have a clue about the plight of minorities. I understand there is a huge difference between the situation of African Americans and Hispanics, and I also realise that having grown up in two different cultures... I had it comparatively easy, my adopted family didn't struggle as bad and I am grateful for that....

But don't fucking come in here telling me about who I am or where I came from, when you don't know jack shit about me.  And arguing because I have light skin I can't possibly be able to know or even sympathize with minorities? Fuck off with your racist bullshit.

She is not being racist. She is demonstrating the same train of thought other groups do which is wrong in my opinion and you explained it good enough. Whites or non whites believe they need guns to protect themselves for very similar reasons.

It's the same idea with mareketing stuff to people amd hype it up from every corner so it would be something a lot öf people think a crucial need in time. Add to that the general culture...result is the current picture.

It's exactly what Mike says. Too much money is at stake. Who care if people are killing each other. Coporate democracy.

[drunkenshoe]

Mass murderers for some reason don't attack uniformed cops at a 7-11 or attack an NRA convention or a gun show but for some reason attack children in schools or a community college where there are no armed guards. Or a theater full of teenagers or a high school. Thing is, it isn't a high noon thing with Gary Cooper it is an attack against the unarmed and the defenseless. Which speaks to the type of person who does it.

Perhaps there might be something in a screening process that would look at backgrounds on people to see if there were reasons not to sell them firearms. Rather than, say, create ways to sell more guns faster.

While trying to offer a gun control solution, you are actually making a perfect argument for a gun ban. Because that's the thing about a tool that its prime function is to kill and create violence. It's not about people. It's the possibility of countless situations that can occur and putting a fire arm in the equation.

[josephpalazzo]

Mass murderers for some reason don't attack uniformed cops at a 7-11 or attack an NRA convention or a gun show but for some reason attack children in schools or a community college where there are no armed guards. Or a theater full of teenagers or a high school. Thing is, it isn't a high noon thing with Gary Cooper it is an attack against the unarmed and the defenseless. Which speaks to the type of person who does it.

Perhaps there might be something in a screening process that would look at backgrounds on people to see if there were reasons not to sell them firearms. Rather than, say, create ways to sell more guns faster.

In Australia, after a high school massacre, the government moved to have very strict gun control. That was in 1996. There hasn't been that many massacres there since then. Go figure.

[Mike Cl]

My chances of being killed was already significanly increased by the virtue that I was born a person of color. Who am I to trust in regards to ensuring my right to self-determination and my right to personal safety if not myself and my community? Am I to trust the government? Well they are doing a piss poor job when it comes to protecting the rights of people of color. In fact for people of color the governemtn constitutes an oppressive force that has historically caused us harm. It is very easy for a white person to make statemetns like you have because you just do not have the experiences that people of color have.

I agree with what you have stated.  I, as a white person, cannot fully understand what you, as a person of color goes through.  I have seen a lot in my years, from the 'Colored' signs in Alabama, to the 'melting pot' of Hawaii, and many places in between--but I have never lived in a skin of color. 

Maybe I have selective memory here--but, except for the sniper of a few years ago, I do not remember the mass killings being done by a black person.  Or a female.  Mainly white males.  I don't know what that means, if anything, but I find it interesting.

[Baruch]

Perhaps ... unstable White males, in a culture that values them ... have less reason to have a breakdown.  In a culture that devalues them (in the sense that they aren't the Master Race that is) their breakdowns are closer to the surface.  Of course back in the day, White males could act out with a lynching or tar & feathering as part of a group, it wasn't a lone gunman.  I prefer we sublimate our aggressions thru sports rather than KKK or crime.

[baronvonrort]

In Australia, after a high school massacre, the government moved to have very strict gun control. That was in 1996. There hasn't been that many massacres there since then. Go figure.

It was not a school massacre at Pt Arthur, it was a café and public streets, the offender was given a disability pension for mental illness over a decade before he went on a rampage, the offender never held a firearms licence.

The worst mass murders on the east coast of Australia were done with fire, the Childers backpacker fire and the Quakers hill fire, our second worst mass shooting done with a single shot bolt action .22lr had less deaths than these arson incidents.

Mass shootings since 1996 are Monash University,Hectorville shooting and Lockart shooting.

How bad was gun violence in Australia before our 1996 laws?
Firearm homicides-
1989- 80 victims
1990- 79 victims
1991- 84 victims
1992- 96 victims
1993- 64 victims
1994- 76 victims
1995- 67 victims
1996 -104 victims ( Over 30 of these done at Pt Arthur)
Gun laws imposed because of unlicensed mass murderer
1997-79 victims
2009- 37 victims
2010- 39 victims
2011- 31 victims
2012 -40 victims
www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

In 1995 the year before our firearm laws were imposed we had 67 firearm homicides, in 2012 we had 40 firearm homicides.

New Zealand has had no mass shootings since 1996, NZ allows semi auto centrefire rifles with silencers for recreational hunting, New Zealand abolished long arm registration in 1983.