Why is God hiding? And why has this question been so overlooked?

Started by 1liesalot, September 12, 2015, 08:21:22 PM

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Baruch

Quote from: trdsf on September 12, 2015, 09:06:57 PM
The typical response to this is that it's apparently important to their god that one accepts his existence without proof, that faith is a virtue unto itself.

This argument rapidly fails under its own weight, since if faith is by definition a virtue, it must be a virtue no matter what's being believed in without evidence, and there's no way to narrow it down so that it applies only and specifically to their god.  As soon as it's defined in terms of faith in a god, it automatically presupposes that a god exists and loses any usefulness as an argument.

The question of faith is a tricky one.  For Jews and Muslims, you do good deeds, in order to gain belief.  For Christians, you believe in order to do good deeds.  The Epistle of James deals with both.  False dichotomy.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Blackleaf

It is strange, isn't it? If God wanted to, he could just speak up so we can hear him. Maybe he's afraid that we'll ask him too many stupid questions.

"Hey, God. Are you there?"

"Yup."

"Okay. I was just curious. But while I've got your attention, can you tell me why evil exists if you're a perfectly good god who created it all?"

"Because evil creates challenges, which make you stronger."

"But why do we need to be made stronger? So we can face greater challenges? Why not create a world without evil, and without hardships instead?"

"Look, kid. I'd love to sit here and answer all of your burning questions, but I've got a lot of stuff to do."

And here's another thing. God showed himself to several people in the Bible, and had no problem with it then. He appeared in as a burning bush for Moses, as a bright light and loud voice for Saul, and sent angels in his place on multiple occasions. But for the rest of us, he expects the magnificence of nature to be enough evidence to convince us. What? How is that evidence? How is the beautiful sunset supposed to convince us that there is one God who created everything, that he sent Jesus to die for our sins, and that we must have faith in Jesus to be saved? Why doesn't he talk through a burning bush in my backyard? That'd convince me pretty quick.

Some Christians will try to say that God doesn't show himself because it would interfere with our free will choice. But I could tell that was a BS explanation even when I was a believer. Imagine if a parent saw their kid walking into the street as a car was passing by, and they did nothing about it.

"Well, I could have saved my kid from death, but I didn't want to interfere with his free will choice to walk into the street."
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Solitary

He's not hiding, you just have not looked in a mirror and seen Him looking back dumb ass!
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Munch

Quote from: Solitary on September 13, 2015, 04:21:11 PM
He's not hiding, you just have not looked in a mirror and seen Him looking back dumb ass!

lets try this.

*Looks in mirror*

GOD GOD GOD.

...

OH SHI..

'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

trdsf

Quote from: Baruch on September 12, 2015, 10:38:42 PM
For Jews and Muslims, you do good deeds, in order to gain belief.
See, this is the point I really don't get -- if you're already doing good works, what does belief add to that?  I would of course say 'nothing', the good deeds are their own reward.

It's even more weird in Christianity, where good works are almost never done for their own sake -- they're to gain favor with their god, or at their god's command, or to avoid going to hell.  Two selfish reasons, and one abdication of responsibility.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

AllPurposeAtheist

Simple ..Stupid Christians kept giving g-d money. He took it all and ran off to another universe to cheat another alternative universe. ...never to return.  Eath is just a celestial ATM.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Baruch

"good deeds are their own reward" ... not to everyone.  Most people are selfish, they aren't saints.  I do them because they are their own reward (if it contributes to the common good), and because it is a duty.

For a theist, doing a good deed reinforces the idea of a good G-d, and doing a bad deed reinforces the idea of a bad G-d.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

peacewithoutgod

#22
Quote from: 1liesalot on September 12, 2015, 08:21:22 PM
Why is God hiding, exactly? I know this has gotten some air time of late, but it's come late to the party.  Surely a powerful argument for atheism because the theists have no answer for this/ Or if they do, what is that answer, exactly?
Their answer to this question is similar to their answers to all questions you can hand them, which is no answer at all. God is there, but you can never lay eyes on him. He's got a problem with eye contact, so he's sort of autistic - yeah, that! God is there, and if you pay attention you will "feel" his presence...uh-huh! He's calling out to you, so why aren't you "listening"? God always answers prayer, but his answer isn't always "Yes", and sometimes it's neither "Yes" nor "No". If you are a believer, you won't notice how much better this fits into the equation for random chance than the fulfillment of said god's promise regarding prayer. God, being created in the human image, can be equally fickle and sometimes the answer is "maybe later". There's always some manner of excuse which even the best of the liars would not get away with if he was trying to con you on anything other than religious ideas, which is why there's nothing about the teaching of such ideas which is not, regardless of whether the teacher understands this as so, fundamentally dishonest.

If you wonder why the lies are so easily accepted by the religious followers, it's because they have believed from their earliest days that there is a god, that an eternity of bliss awaits those who believe in and obey it, that they don't want to be counted among the unbelievers on account of dire consequences which were also cruelly programmed into their brains as toddlers. In order to preserve these ideas which they fear losing their belief in, they shut off their bullshit filtration systems for what comes from the pulpit. They do this because they need (like a drug addict needs) to hear what will make them hold on to false beliefs for fear of what may happen if they should ever stop believing.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Baruch

Giving up childhood beliefs or early adulthood beliefs is scary.  Think of a young bird pushed out a nest, way up high in a tree.  But it has to be done, if people are going to develop further.  But you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

peacewithoutgod

Quote from: Baruch on September 14, 2015, 01:52:50 PM
Giving up childhood beliefs or early adulthood beliefs is scary.  Think of a young bird pushed out a nest, way up high in a tree.  But it has to be done, if people are going to develop further.  But you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
The difference is that birds don't get ideas programmed into their heads before they reach an age where they become capable of reasoning out what they are told. Considering their small brain size, it's just as well for them that they don't learn, and are not saddled by any need to deal with ideas at all. Bird chicks do have a perfectly rational fear of falling out or being kicked out of the nest, because it isn't until they start falling that they discover what their wings are for. Birds learn something useful from the actions of their mothers, while human mothers saddle little human minds with useless and cruel ideas which will at best hinder their intellectual development.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

widdershins

The excuse I've most commonly heard is, "God has nothing to prove to you!"  Sure.  I'll buy that.  He's just demanded my worship and offered me eternal life and the only evidence I have that this is true is an old collection of scrolls fashioned into a book by people I should, for some reason, automatically trust without question which tells me how to treat my slaves (specifically how long a slave must survive a brutal beating before succumbing to their injuries so that I didn't go too far with said beating), at what times I should bash in the heads of babies and when I should kill which people while at the same time telling me not to do any of those things.  No, nothing to prove here.  It's all pretty cut and dried.
This sentence is a lie...

ApostateLois

Believers will simply say that God is all around us, we just refuse to acknowledge him. To them, every flower, mountain, and pretty space nebula is evidence of God--but of course, diseases and malformed babies are not...except when God is using them to punish sinners.
"Now we see through a glass dumbly." ~Crow, MST3K #903, "Puma Man"