Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy

Started by CrucifyCindy, August 24, 2015, 02:55:13 PM

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peacewithoutgod

#75
Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
You're spouting your dogma and propaganda.
Psychedelic drugs make you far more emphatic.

Now it's time to see if you can pass this simple science quiz. Answer 1 question correctly, and you score 100%!

Question 1:
When a substance is causing your brain to behave as it isn't supposed to, leading to memory loss, hallucinations, impairment of psychomotor functions, and impaired concentration, are these effects most likely caused by

a) the construction of new neurological connections

b) the destruction of existing neurological connections
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

stromboli

Took Wellbutrin back in the day and am drug free now. Once you understand you have depression you can deal with it. Nearly every drug taken has something comparable found in nature. Aspirin is a synthetic form of the drug used by native shamans in willow bark. Marijuana was listed as a healing herb long before it was ever banned. There is evidence now that William Shakespeare used pot.

And I agree with Mike; I think drugs should be deregulated. In Colorado, Marijuana "abuse" vanished after they legalized it because it didn't actually exist. Countries that have stopped jailing drug addicts and started treating it as a medical problem have seen no rise in drug abuse. Turns out certain people biologically have a tendency to be addicted. The truth is most drug users are not addicts. I have Marijuana for my wife's MS. I don't use it and have no desire to.

peacewithoutgod

#77
Quote from: stromboli on August 26, 2015, 01:01:59 PM
Took Wellbutrin back in the day and am drug free now. Once you understand you have depression you can deal with it. Nearly every drug taken has something comparable found in nature. Aspirin is a synthetic form of the drug used by native shamans in willow bark. Marijuana was listed as a healing herb long before it was ever banned. There is evidence now that William Shakespeare used pot.

And I agree with Mike; I think drugs should be deregulated. In Colorado, Marijuana "abuse" vanished after they legalized it because it didn't actually exist. Countries that have stopped jailing drug addicts and started treating it as a medical problem have seen no rise in drug abuse. Turns out certain people biologically have a tendency to be addicted. The truth is most drug users are not addicts. I have Marijuana for my wife's MS. I don't use it and have no desire to.
Deregulation, as opposed to banning completely, YES! I don't think there should be total deregulation of most drugs which are used primarily for recreational use, particularly those which are addictve - there should certainly be a recordkeeping system to be paid for by the user, limiting his per month purchases. Let anybody use Mary Jane as they wish, but educate people concerning the risks.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

aitm

You can only educate those willing to listen. It is and has been obvious that many have no intention nor desire to pay attention to the dangers of drugs.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

peacewithoutgod

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 01:31:42 PM
You can only educate those willing to listen. It is and has been obvious that many have no intention nor desire to pay attention to the dangers of drugs.
Ok, then just slap on a warning label and be done with it.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

GSOgymrat

#80
I know I am off topic but several authors, including Sam Harris, have advocated the use of hallucinogens, MDMA and other drugs to "expand consciousness." Neurologists know that taking certain drugs stimulate certain areas of the brain and can result in altered perceptions, such as feeling there is a presence in the room, a dissolved sense of self, euphoria, dissociative episodes, etc. There are also drugs that can induce severe anxiety and paranoid delusions. Let's say a man takes a drug that makes him paranoid and he believes his family is trying to murder him by poisoning his food (this is a common delusion). His perception is not accurate. Now let's say a woman takes a drug that makes her feel an intense connection and affection for people around her and a dissolved sense of self. What exactly makes her perception any more accurate than the man's? People taking drugs to induce a pleasurable sensation is understandable but to say that the drug induces a more accurate perception of the world doesn't make sense to me. I know it FEELS completely real when under drugs that we are one with the universe but it doesn't mean we actually are.

SGOS

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 24, 2015, 02:55:13 PM
I have notice among some atheists the Eastern and New Age philosophy is not subject to the same criticism or skepticism as our more Western religions and spiritual philosophies.

Such atheists must exist.  There are a lot of atheists.  I just haven't met the ones you are talking about.  I'd like to talk with the ones who do give a pass to other religions just to hear their reasoning.  I think such a discussion would be interesting as I think it's a unique position, although I doubt they would convince me of anything significant.  There might be a case that the Amish are more acceptable than those who profess the slaying of apostates, but it's still all nonsense.

I know this thread has taken a turn to a drug discussion, but I've been away for a week.

peacewithoutgod

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 02:10:53 PM
I know I am off topic but several authors, including Sam Harris, have advocated the use of hallucinogens, MDMA and other drugs to "expand consciousness." Neurologists know that taking certain drugs of stimulate certain areas of the brain and can result in altered perceptions, such as feeling there is a presence in the room, a dissolved sense of self, euphoria, dissociative episodes, etc. There are also drugs that can also induce severe anxiety and paranoid delusions. Let's say a man takes a drug that makes him paranoid and he believes his family is trying to murder him by poisoning his food (this is a common delusion). His perception is not accurate. Now let's say a woman takes a drug that makes her feel an intense connection and affection for people around her and a dissolved sense of self. What exactly makes her perception any more accurate than the man's? People taking drugs to induce a pleasurable sensation is understandable but to say that the drug induces a more accurate perception of the world doesn't make sense to me.
Where did Harris actually recommend the use of hallucinogens? I read The Moral Landscape, in which he described how they are used in some cultures, and their effects on the user, but I didn't conclude any recommendation there. What Harris has been known to recommend is quiet, relaxing meditation through focus on one's own breathing. Without drugs or woo, and with patience and concentration, this is effective.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

GSOgymrat

He discusses his drug use in detail in Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion and describes how the profoundly hallucinogens have influenced his life. He writes:

"Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamines or heroin, I might never sleep again. But if they don't try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human can experience."

He does warn that people who are prone to mental illness shouldn't take drugs.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Well here's your research. DRUGS are a construct.
These substances are our birthright. They were used throughout history then religion destroyed it.
Secular governments enforced it.
No, people destroyed it when they started abusing it and dying/going crazy and scaring other people to death. True, the way we now go about it is completely the wrong way, but to say that everything was hunky dory with drugs is complete nonsense. The fact remains that what we call "drugs" are dangerous chemicals with serious effects and side effects. They are not innocuous.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
It's almost impossible to research these things thanks to the criminal scum at the DEA. They don't give a fuck about safety.
Yes, they do. They're doing it wrong, and out of an overblown fear of the side effects of the drugs they make illegal, but they actually do care about safety.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Far more people are hurt because they are illegal.
Yes, because we have an insane drug policy spurred on by an insane fear of drugs. But that insane fear of drugs does not mean that there is not a legitimate fear of those same drugs.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
We also have private prisons that make money thanks to drug laws and have lobbyist working on harsher sentences. 
They are classed as having no medical value but there's no research to support that.
False. Cocaine is routinely used locally in eye surgery due to its ability to contract blood vessels to reduce bleeding and it also is an anesthetic. However, that effect of cocaine (together with its stimulant properties) means that at higher dosages, it overly strains the heart and can lead to cardiac arrest. THC (the active ingredient in cannibus) is actively being researched as an anti-nausiatic and hunger promotor. But not cannibis itself, because it has much the same hazards as smoking with no additional benefits above the purified THC product. And really, why would you want that junk in your lungs if the goal is to get THC into your body?

Yes, your body naturally generates DMT. But have you ever wondered why it doesn't generate more if it's so good for you? It's because the creatures that did generate more of it don't survive as long as the ones that generate the more moderate amounts. More is not always better.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
You have been conned and lied to your whole live and believed it. IT"S LIES
It's untruth, but I wouldn't say it's lies. Lies imply deliberate deception, but the most likely explanation for the drug war is just insane paranoia, a paranoia that does have basis in reality. These drugs are dangerous, just not to the degree they're commonly thought.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
<snip>
Poetry/song lyrics is a poor form of argument. Empirical evidence and clean sound logic would server your case much better.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Rick Strassman is one of the only people who has been allowed to do research on DMT.
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v08n3/08304str.html
So what if he is? Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the only scientist with both the interest to perform good research on DMT and the required skill to perform that research. Being able to get clean, high-quality data, and turn it into usable results is good, right?
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Nihil-ist

There's quite a bit of misinformation out there due to the red scare and the government thinking drugs turn everyone into Communist.
If you don't know about it MKULTRA. The CIA experimented on unwilling citizens they knew the powerful paradigm breaking effects they have.

You have no idea what you're missing. Psychedelics are very different from narcotics. Certainly not everyone should use them but I believe I have every right too. True education would have much more benefit than Regan's just say no bullshit.
http://www.maps.org/research-archive/ayahuasca/Thomas_et_al_CDAR.pdf
http://www.maps.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=179&Itemid=637

"At some point in human history there were no gods."
"Deus est mortuus logica obtinet"

jonb

Quote from: SGOS on August 26, 2015, 02:18:01 PM

I know this thread has taken a turn to a drug discussion, but I've been away for a week.

Yes but that is bound to be the case. Once the woo is removed what else is there in eastern religion to talk about?

peacewithoutgod

#87
Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
There's quite a bit of misinformation out there due to the red scare and the government thinking drugs turn everyone into Communist.
If you don't know about it MKULTRA. The CIA experimented on unwilling citizens they knew the powerful paradigm breaking effects they have.

You have no idea what you're missing. Psychedelics are very different from narcotics. Certainly not everyone should use them but I believe I have every right too. True education would have much more benefit than Regan's just say no bullshit.
:wtff: :blahblah: :toilet: :axe: :anal: :butt: :butt: :butt: :butt: :butt: :butt: :evil: :weed: :alien2: :trunksthing: :madu: :toilet: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :wtff:
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
There's quite a bit of misinformation out there due to the red scare and the government thinking drugs turn everyone into Communist.
If you don't know about it MKULTRA. The CIA experimented on unwilling citizens they knew the powerful paradigm breaking effects they have.
The CIA's MKUltra program was aimed at developing the CIA's stock in trade: military intelligence and subterfuge. It was essentially a program to make all those spy movie tropes reality: truth serums, mind-control drugs, brainwashing, etc. As for the secret testing, yeah, that happened, but you leave out that adverse effects were commonplace, described as "long-term debilitation" and that several of those subjects had died. If anything, it underlines my point: these drugs are not innocuous. They are powerful and dangerous and need to be respected.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
You have no idea what you're missing. Psychedelics are very different from narcotics. Certainly not everyone should use them but I believe I have every right too. True education would have much more benefit than Regan's just say no bullshit.
Pyschadelic effects are artificially induced religious experiences. I've already had my fill of those for one life-time, and since going into science I've come to appreciate that the world is wonderful and beautiful even when you're well-grounded in reality, and have aspects as weird and wacky as anything described in a psychadelic trip â€" made all the sweeter because it's actually real and not the function of an off-kilter brain chemistry.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Nihil-ist

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 27, 2015, 08:48:20 AM
The CIA's MKUltra program was aimed at developing the CIA's stock in trade: military intelligence and subterfuge. It was essentially a program to make all those spy movie tropes reality: truth serums, mind-control drugs, brainwashing, etc. As for the secret testing, yeah, that happened, but you leave out that adverse effects were commonplace, described as "long-term debilitation" and that several of those subjects had died. If anything, it underlines my point: these drugs are not innocuous. They are powerful and dangerous and need to be respected.
Pyschadelic effects are artificially induced religious experiences. I've already had my fill of those for one life-time, and since going into science I've come to appreciate that the world is wonderful and beautiful even when you're well-grounded in reality, and have aspects as weird and wacky as anything described in a psychadelic trip â€" made all the sweeter because it's actually real and not the function of an off-kilter brain chemistry.

Yes all drugs should be respected even caffeine and aspirin. I left it out because people were being dose without knowing and who knows how much. LSD is active in the 100 microgram amounts so getting dosed with a milligram could be devastating. One person was said to have been dosed 100+ days straight.
You don't need drugs to have psychedelic experiences they can be induced through mediation and float tanks too.
"At some point in human history there were no gods."
"Deus est mortuus logica obtinet"