Author Topic: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy  (Read 9889 times)

Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2015, 10:31:44 AM »
But the real goal of BJP is to force all Muslims to Hinduism, and into the untouchable class. Of BJP, everyone who is not of their party is of Ravana, they are the party of Rama. Oh, gotta conquer Sri Lanka while they are at it, not just Bangladesh and Pakistan.
No, Baruch, no. BJP is not at all like that. BJP has no problem with Muslims unless they indulge in terrorism to aid Pakistan's designs. Of course, there are a few things that we would like to change:
1. No special status for Kashmir. But India has given Kashmiris its word that the change will be made only if Jammu & Kashmir Assembly accepts it. BJP will not force the issue.
2. Muslim personal law has created many problems for Muslim women. In a recent survey, 95% of the Muslim women want the thrice-spoken divorce (Talaq) to go. We want that. Then the question of alimony. Then the four-marriage law. It is unfair to women and we will like to see it go. BJP will like Muslims to follow the Indian civil law. these concessions were given to Muslims by the Congress governments to retain the Muslim votes. We have no problem with burquas or beards.

We have no territorial ambitions. We have enough problems with what we have. We will like to manage that. Why should we add to our problems by adding Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or even Nepal. Of course, we want our military to be powerful. We have two belligerent neighbors with missile and nuclear capabilities. See what China is doing in South China Sea and Pakistan in Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 01:54:25 PM by Aupmanyav »
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2015, 10:57:50 AM »

"Thus, in successive generations members of a population are replaced by progeny of parents better adapted to survive and reproduce in the biophysical environment in which natural selection takes place." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
It does not roll randomly.
You are right--evolution does not happen randomly.  The point I was trying to make is that the process of evolution is guided by physical laws; much like the law that states that water flows in the direction of least resistance.  That may appear to be random, but really isn't.  But neither process is guided by and 'intelligence'. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2015, 01:40:29 PM »
That may appear to be random, but really isn't.  But neither process is guided by and 'intelligence'.
Did I ever say that?
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Offline Baruch

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2015, 01:46:56 PM »
If there is no intelligent guidance in nature ... then that explains some of the postings here ;-)
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Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2015, 01:48:58 PM »
Any religion which was really about true social justice would have been quickly beaten down into oblivion, or it simply never would have caught on big without the support of kings.
And if the religion was about social justice, there would have been no poor? Why are you against kings? All nations need rulers to maintain order. Call them King, Prime Minister or President, whatever. Kings had their own obligations to fulfill. They are mentioned in the religious scriptures in detail. We had democracies in Buddha's time where the rulers were selected by people - Janapadas.
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Offline Baruch

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2015, 01:53:22 PM »
Democracy has always fallen to authoritarian strongmen ... sigh ... in Greece and India ... and is happening now for a long time in the US.  Though I would hope the decentralized India would continue to do better than Pakistan in this regard.  Isn't the new Indian PM too close to the corporations?
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Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2015, 01:59:53 PM »
If there is no intelligent guidance in nature ... then that explains some of the postings here ;-)
Which postings, Baruch? I am a strong atheist of long standing. I do not believe in God, soul, heaven, hell, transference of Karmas to any non-existent future lives, judgment, birth, death, and creation. Tell me on what to explain my views and I will gladly do that.
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Offline Baruch

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2015, 02:03:18 PM »
Wasn't intended for you personally ;-)  However I realize that as a human, you are a political animal.  I also realize that I may be misinformed about aspects in India ... that you can help me with.  And you know I have no problem with your personal path as an atheist Hindu ... anymore than I would with a Vaisnava, Saiva nor Durga.  As I mentioned elsewhere, my personal view of G-d is closer to Kali-Ma ... if I were a Hindu myself.  We will have to talk about the various yoga systems some time ;-)
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Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2015, 02:10:39 PM »
Democracy has always fallen to authoritarian strongmen ... sigh ... in Greece and India ... and is happening now for a long time in the US.  Though I would hope the decentralized India would continue to do better than Pakistan in this regard.  Isn't the new Indian PM too close to the corporations?
I would not say that till I have any evidence of the same. Some Janapadas were republics, some had hereditary kings with approval of the populace and so on. It was not one type of democracy.

"The Janapadas were the realms, republics and kingdoms of the Indian Vedic period late Bronze Age into the (Iron Age) from about 1200 BC to the 6th century BC coinciding with the rise of sixteen great Mahajanapadas .." (however, Wikipedia lists 57 in all)
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2015, 02:12:25 PM »
Did I ever say that?
I'm not sure.  I asked what you meant by, "Evolution is not a blind process. It proceeds according to its experience. When we do not require a tail, it withers."  Understand, I am not trying to put you into any particular hole--I was, and, am, curious what you meant by, especially, 'it proceeds according to its experience.'  I'm honestly stuck on what you mean.  That's all.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2015, 02:23:39 PM »
If we take swastika boys excuse for the Hindus that a thousand years ago they were ruled by others, then the other part of his argument that much that was wrong is the fault of the British does not stand because British history holds exactly the same excuse for the British. .. I am saying both pot and Kettle are black, Swastika boy is putting forward the idea his side is all white, and that looks very fundamentalist to me.
Yes, our misfortune lasted for more than 1,000 years.

First the Muslim rule and then the Company rule and then the British rule. You can read bout it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_in_India, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj#Partition_of_Bengal_.281905.E2.80.931911.29
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2015, 02:26:01 PM »
I'm not sure.  I asked what you meant by, "Evolution is not a blind process. It proceeds according to its experience. When we do not require a tail, it withers."  Understand, I am not trying to put you into any particular hole--I was, and, am, curious what you meant by, especially, 'it proceeds according to its experience.'  I'm honestly stuck on what you mean.  That's all.
OK and metta. What I meant by 'experience of evolution' was what Darwin said and as mentioned in Wikipedia "Thus, in successive generations members of a population are replaced by progeny of parents better adapted to survive and reproduce in the biophysical environment in which natural selection takes place." Evolution did not select those who did not fit the environment. It as you too understand is a purely physical phenomenon.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 02:30:02 PM by Aupmanyav »
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2015, 03:05:48 PM »
If there is no intelligent guidance in nature ... then that explains some of the postings here ;-)

Of course nature has no intelligent guidence...otherwise the Demiurge wouldn't find it amusing. And we are all here to amuse the Demiurge...aren't we?
“Rational thought is a failed experiment and should be phased out.”
 William S. Burroughs

 حسن الصباح - ليس هناك ما هو صحيح ، كل شيء مسموح به

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2015, 04:53:51 PM »
Yes, our misfortune lasted for more than 1,000 years.
In 1776 the British government could not control two and a half million Americans that were a two week voyage away.
India was admittedly differently advanced technologically, but essentially just as advanced as anything from Europe and possibly more advanced.
Average estimate of the population of India in 1800 around 200 million. It took at least six months to sail from England to India.
You might blame others but those statistics alone show the Europeans would have counted for nothing if they did not receive a great deal of Indian help.

We could argue over why indians chose foreign governance, but an attitude that blames all wrongs on the foreigner is as wrong from an Indian as it is wrong from an Englisher as it is wrong from any nationality.

Think about this for yourself you can be proud of a nation that has thrown off its shackles and is standing on its own feet, but you now sound very like what the Germans called 'A little Englander'

Are you creating a new India or are you in avoiding any introspection becoming the new English speaking elite that believe they have a divine right to rule?

Offline Baruch

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2015, 06:27:51 PM »
Fortunately we don't know the might-of-beens ... just the what-was.  Would things have been better if Alexander had lived, conquered both India and Italy, so that Indian and Roman civilization were cut off?  One counter-historian has said that in that event, history would be 1000 years more advanced today, than it is ... with Buddhism not Christianity as the dominant religion, no Islam and no Judaism either.  And progressive that this guy is, that we would be 1000 years more advanced in outer space, and already colonizing other solar systems.

It is not clear to me, that being conquered by nearly tribes is any better than being conquered by far away tribes.  Back in the day before WW II, war was considered part of everyone's alternative business plan.  Ultimately trial by combat is at the top of the chart, followed by trial by ordeal, and finally trial by court.  The idea that everyone will play nice, and stick to trial by court ... is naive.  Trial by ordeal includes such fun things as plagues and starvation.  I think the only lesson that can be drawn is ... don't let other tribes conquer you, and that sometimes a good offense is the best defense.
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