Author Topic: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy  (Read 8028 times)

Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« on: August 24, 2015, 02:55:13 PM »
I have notice among some atheists the Eastern and New Age philosophy is not subject to the same criticism or skepticism as our more Western religions and spiritual philosophies. Some seem to think that just because it comes from the East that it must be better when it is just as filled with the same woo as what we have in the West. In fact I see some Eastern philosophies as just a rationalization of conservatism, a way to rationalize racism and elitism, dressing it up as some higher form of spirituality. Take the caste system as an example. I have read arguments that such a system is necessary because this is the way the universe or "karma" works, it is needful to treat other unequally because that is their karma but all I see is a rationalization of traditional injustice and prejudice. So I want to ask you atheist who keep defending Eastern thought over Western thought why don't you aim the same scrutiny over Eastern thought, why the kid gloves?
“Rational thought is a failed experiment and should be phased out.”
 William S. Burroughs

 حسن الصباح - ليس هناك ما هو صحيح ، كل شيء مسموح به

Online aitm

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 03:52:47 PM »
I understand what  you're saying. We see a lot of woo here that some think is a special kind of woo because it suggests humans are more than evolved animals and we can "exist" as something "higher" than what we are…..or gibberish like that. Woo is woo.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 04:13:05 PM »
The religion that is in your face annoying you is going to get the most criticism. Hippies play around karma but it tends to get less criticism because I don't think most of us in the west actually take it seriously.

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 05:37:57 PM »
It uses woo as metaphor to show that the world is woo.
Most don't realize this and take it literary.

From nothing comes something, from something comes nothing. This is the way of the material universe.

Quote
    When people see things as beautiful,
    ugliness is created.
    When people see things as good,
    evil is created.

    Being and non-being produce each other.
    Difficult and easy complement each other.
    Long and short define each other.
    High and low oppose each other.
    Fore and aft follow each other.



Quote
Ajata-vada theory may also be called the theory of non-origination. According to ajata-vada, the perceptual world in which we exist was never created. This theory completely rejects all causality.
It does not accept that there is any cause or source of this perceptual world.

This means that in reality nothing is born and nothing dies. There is no birth, no death, no growth, and no decay - in short, no change whatsoever. There is neither bondage nor liberation. Nothing exist except brahman(only a god to the ignorant, actually a word for infinity) the one and only reality.

Due to ignorance (ajnana) about brahman the world appears to exist in the minds of the ignorant.
When one experiences the self as one with brahmam, the illusion of the world is annihilated. What remains is brahman- the reality- a state of eternity.

Quote
Kathopanishad
"Whatever there is such as the whole universe comes out of brahman(infinity) and keeps on vibrating"
In other words, the cause of this universe is brahman(infinity). All objects, living or non-living, are vibrating, but obviously not at the same frequency. Had they been vibrating at the same freequency they would all be the same object.
Had they not vibrated at all they would be no difference from brahman(infinity)


"At some point in human history there were no gods."
"Deus est mortuus logica obtinet"

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 06:18:05 PM »
Why is a raven like a writing-desk?


“Begin at the beginning," the King said, very gravely, "and go on till you come to the end: then stop.”

Quote
The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.

The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"



Quote
The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"

"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.

"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."

The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.

But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.

Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.

Quote
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.

"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."

"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?


"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2015, 06:30:02 PM »
I'm surround by Christians and we all agree those "religions" are nonsense. We don't criticize because we don't their faith seriously.

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2015, 06:50:15 PM »
An atheist only believes in one less god than everyone else.

Offline Baruch

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2015, 07:32:46 PM »
As Westerners ... it is hard not to be caught up in positive/negative Orientalism.  The Easterners have the same problem, being caught up in positive/negative Occidentalism.  But since they were more recently on the receiving end of colonialism, they have a sense of justifiable ennui.

Also some folks might be giving the Easterners a break, because we see them as oppressed Third World folks.  Christianity is too prosperous and prevalent where we live, not to be a large target.  Muslims tend to be too militant and too close for comfort for some folks, so they are a large target.

Now it isn't necessary to take any traditional religion seriously ... so I am not criticizing that.  Anything that has staying power can take all the criticism it can get ... and not just verbiage, but action.  Reality wasn't meant to be a Parisian salon.
שלום

Online aitm

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2015, 09:37:33 PM »
If you can't give a good answer in one paragraph, I don't even bother with the 70 that follows. Do you really think we read that shit?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 10:53:55 PM »
If you can't give a good answer in one paragraph, I don't even bother with the 70 that follows. Do you really think we read that shit?

I was thinking when in Rome do as the Romans do. We are talking about woo here are we not, eastern philosophy. A bit of poetry wobbly picture all designed to make a few stoners go right on man, without any hard and fast meaning.

Quote
Do you really think we read that shit?
Exhibiting the erudition of a line like that, I think it is quite marvelous if you've read anything at all.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:55:28 PM by jonb »

Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 11:07:42 PM »
In fact I see some Eastern philosophies as just a rationalization of conservatism, a way to rationalize racism and elitism, dressing it up as some higher form of spirituality.
In Hinduism, we have two words and not just one that you mention, caste. Caste is 'jati'. Like a person from Bengal is a Bengali and a person from Punjab is a Punjabi. Caste shows tribal, regional, professional, linguistic, traditional differences. So there are Ahirs and Gujars, just like as there are Irish and Italians.

There is one more word and that is 'varna'. This is the inherent inclination of a person which comes about through education, training, experiences. A person interested in research and study is considered to be of brahmin varna. Now any one from any caste can have a brahmin varna. It does not depend on birth. A physically strong person delighting in challenges, sports, war is said to have the 'kshatriya' varna, though he may be born in a brahmin/kshatriya/vaishya (traders/agriculturists) or shudra (those who work for others) family. 

Be sure about what you mean when you talk about castes in Hinduism. An Italian will not like to be known as an Irish. An Ahir also would not like to be known as a Gujar. Each has its own tradition and history. Hinduism did not force anyone to leave their traditons and history.
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)


Offline Aupmanyav

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 01:07:36 AM »
The Hindu party (Narendra Modi) has won only the second time in the history of India. For 63 years out of the 69, India had anti-Hindu rulers. Now those who have lost power are whining. Why should we care? Aseemanand was framed by the Italian Catholic Sonia Gandhi's party. Yes, there has been violence between Hindus and Muslims, but most of the time it came after Muslim atrocities, like the Mumbai serial bombing or the Godhra burning of the rail coach. Sometimes the violence was triggered by Congress (Sonia Gandhi's party) as in Moradabad riots or in Bhagalpur riots. The purpose was to turn Muslims away from Hindu party.

"Many social scientists feel that many of these acts of violence are institutionally supported, particularly by political parties and organizations from both sides of the political spectrum including Indian National Congress and Samajwadi Party to the Hindu nationalist volunteer organisation, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). Statistics released by the Indian Government reveals that between 2011-2013, Congress ruled states had more number of communal violence incidents than BJP ruled states. Samajwadi Party-ruled Uttar Pradesh was the worst-hit when it comes to communal unrest."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Muslims_in_India#Role_of_political_parties

If you choose to go by motivated reports, you are welcome to do that. There will be millions of them on internet.

As for Christians, they are first to cry at any incident, even when Hindus are not involved; or when the disturbance is caused by them.

"The violence escalated after Hindu monk Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati was attacked by Christian fundamentalist mob en route to the spot of the confrontation. Saraswati stated that he had left for Brahmanigaon to boost the "morale of the majority community" The National Commission for Minorities in its report stated that this was "indicative of his desire to exacerbate communal tensions". Saraswati's car had been blocked by a bus belonging to Sugriba Singh, Panna leader and BJD Member of Parliament (Lower House). Saraswati supporters confronted them leading to an argument which led to a fight. Additionally, Christian leader Radha Kanta Nayak, Congress Member of Parliament (Upper House) and chief of Christian group World Vision allegedly incited hatred which led to further clashes between Hindus and Christians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_Odisha#Attack_on_Swami_Laxmanananda

Swami Laxmananda and four of his associates were killed.
"Brahma Satyam Jagan-mithya" (Brahman is the truth, the observed is an illusion)
"Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (All this here is Brahman)

Offline dtq123

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 01:09:48 AM »
I have notice among some atheists the Eastern and New Age philosophy is not subject to the same criticism or skepticism as our more Western religions and spiritual philosophies. Some seem to think that just because it comes from the East that it must be better when it is just as filled with the same woo as what we have in the West. In fact I see some Eastern philosophies as just a rationalization of conservatism, a way to rationalize racism and elitism, dressing it up as some higher form of spirituality. Take the caste system as an example. I have read arguments that such a system is necessary because this is the way the universe or "karma" works, it is needful to treat other unequally because that is their karma but all I see is a rationalization of traditional injustice and prejudice. So I want to ask you atheist who keep defending Eastern thought over Western thought why don't you aim the same scrutiny over Eastern thought, why the kid gloves?
Most of us live in western nations, so we attack western religion. We don't have as much exposure. Derp.

Fuck Buddha. Fuck Lao Tsu. Fuck Brahma. Fuck Kamis... Ok Keep Kamis, They have great miko dresses... Ah, my sexism is showing again. :eyes:

A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Re: Kid Gloves Atheism and Eastern Philosophy
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2015, 01:22:10 AM »
Damn straight! Fuck you Buddha!