Author Topic: favorite historical figure?  (Read 8512 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2017, 06:57:19 AM »
Sportsmanship is dead, long time.  Money and betting ruined it, even for the gladiators in Rome ;-)
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2017, 07:06:20 AM »
As far as I know, none of the players I mentioned were involved in money or betting.  Did you have anything applicable to say?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2017, 08:53:54 AM »
My apologies for the old reply...

Statistics aren't everything.  Mays was great.  Ruth was great.  But with Cobb, it's not what he did, but what he could have done and didn't.  He had an idea of what the game should be and played it that way.  I detest his views, but admire what he could do.  When he chose to, he could do do any part of the game as well as anyone.

I suppose I look back to older play in sports.  For example, I do not understand modern basketball at all.  Players foul on every play, travel routinely, palm the ball and get away with violations that (to my mind) ruin the game.

Just a thought...
I am not saying that Cobb was not influential--he had enormous impact on the game.  He WAS the face of the game.  And he was universally hated and feared.  He brought violence to the game; whether on the field, under the stands or in the clubhouse.  He was so hated that in 1910 his teammates conspired to let Lajoie get 6 hits in the final game of the season so that Lajoie would win the batting title.  That's being hated................Ruth's pitching did not change the game.  But his personality and hitting did.  He was almost universally loved and he convinced the younger generation that they wanted to be Ruth--few had wanted to grow  up to be Cobb.  Some played his style, and some still do.  But speed is not the be all, end all that it was in Cobb's time.  Home runs still are one of the desired outcomes in baseball.  Champions are built upon power, not generally speed.  Cobb's style did not change the face of the game; in fact it is the face of the old game.  Ruth and power changed the game forever.  Think of '98 when McGwire and Sosa were battling it out for the homer crown; most baseball people say that that saved the game that was clearly limping along after the 1994 strike.  Power is the name of the game, and Ruth is the face of power.  Bonds is the best hitter of the game ever and he is compared to Ruth to prove it--not Cobb.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2017, 10:16:59 AM »
I am not saying that Cobb was not influential--he had enormous impact on the game.  He WAS the face of the game.  And he was universally hated and feared.  He brought violence to the game; whether on the field, under the stands or in the clubhouse.  He was so hated that in 1910 his teammates conspired to let Lajoie get 6 hits in the final game of the season so that Lajoie would win the batting title.  That's being hated................Ruth's pitching did not change the game.  But his personality and hitting did.  He was almost universally loved and he convinced the younger generation that they wanted to be Ruth--few had wanted to grow  up to be Cobb.  Some played his style, and some still do.  But speed is not the be all, end all that it was in Cobb's time.  Home runs still are one of the desired outcomes in baseball.  Champions are built upon power, not generally speed.  Cobb's style did not change the face of the game; in fact it is the face of the old game.  Ruth and power changed the game forever.  Think of '98 when McGwire and Sosa were battling it out for the homer crown; most baseball people say that that saved the game that was clearly limping along after the 1994 strike.  Power is the name of the game, and Ruth is the face of power.  Bonds is the best hitter of the game ever and he is compared to Ruth to prove it--not Cobb.

 I admire the dedication of your replies and the outstanding defense of players other than Cobb.  I really do.  Are you, by any chance, George Wills in real life?  :)

But we are arguing apples and oranges.  Personally, I find Cobb reprehensible.  If he were a family member, I wouldn't talk to him.  If a neighbor, I would shun him.  I do not in any way forgive him his bigotry and violence on or off the field.  He should have been banned from the game for sharpening his spikes and using them for injury.  But that guy could PLAY!

That doesn't mean I don't admire so many others.  I love to watch Ken Burns' Baseball from start to finish.  I love Ruth for his pitching and hitting ability.  Mays was awesome.  But I separate skill from personality in sports. 

It is probably not a coincidence that my 2nd favorite player is Pete Rose.  Cheater, gambler, player extraordinaire.    Almost Cobb drive reborn.  And I hope Rose never gets into the Hall Of Fame.   

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2017, 12:56:59 PM »
I admire the dedication of your replies and the outstanding defense of players other than Cobb.  I really do.  Are you, by any chance, George Wills in real life?  :)

But we are arguing apples and oranges.  Personally, I find Cobb reprehensible.  If he were a family member, I wouldn't talk to him.  If a neighbor, I would shun him.  I do not in any way forgive him his bigotry and violence on or off the field.  He should have been banned from the game for sharpening his spikes and using them for injury.  But that guy could PLAY!

That doesn't mean I don't admire so many others.  I love to watch Ken Burns' Baseball from start to finish.  I love Ruth for his pitching and hitting ability.  Mays was awesome.  But I separate skill from personality in sports. 

It is probably not a coincidence that my 2nd favorite player is Pete Rose.  Cheater, gambler, player extraordinaire.    Almost Cobb drive reborn.  And I hope Rose never gets into the Hall Of Fame.
Baseball is my passion, so I surpass George Wills and his repub brain.  :)  Anyway, I don't think we are talking apples and oranges here.  Cobb was a massive talent--he'd be a superstar now if alive.  And he had a huge impact, the biggest, even beyond Lajoie who was massively popular (had a team named after him--Cleveland Naps I think) but Cobb was trans-formative for his time.  But his time ended in 1920 with the emergence of Babe Ruth.  Overall, I'd say Ruth was more talented than Cobb--and maybe even more than any other player, ever.  If he had used half of the training programs that are routine today, he'd have had even larger numbers.  His style of play changed the face of the game forever--not just for a decade or so.  If I were to try to put together an alltime 25 man squad, would Cobb even start?  Where would he fit in an outfield of Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Williams, Bonds, Speaker, Aaron--not sure I'd even start the guy.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2017, 02:18:52 PM »
Baseball is my passion, so I surpass George Wills and his repub brain.  :)  Anyway, I don't think we are talking apples and oranges here.  Cobb was a massive talent--he'd be a superstar now if alive.  And he had a huge impact, the biggest, even beyond Lajoie who was massively popular (had a team named after him--Cleveland Naps I think) but Cobb was trans-formative for his time.  But his time ended in 1920 with the emergence of Babe Ruth.  Overall, I'd say Ruth was more talented than Cobb--and maybe even more than any other player, ever.  If he had used half of the training programs that are routine today, he'd have had even larger numbers.  His style of play changed the face of the game forever--not just for a decade or so.  If I were to try to put together an alltime 25 man squad, would Cobb even start?  Where would he fit in an outfield of Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Williams, Bonds, Speaker, Aaron--not sure I'd even start the guy.

OK, Koufax and Johnson pitching, Bench,  Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Brooks Robinson infield, Cobb, Mays and Williams outfield right to left.  Ruth designated hitter and backup pitcher.  Stengel Manager. 

Beat that!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2017, 04:19:54 PM »
OK, Koufax and Johnson pitching, Bench,  Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Brooks Robinson infield, Cobb, Mays and Williams outfield right to left.  Ruth designated hitter and backup pitcher.  Stengel Manager. 

Beat that!
To make matters worse, do you pick your team using career stats--or top 1/2 seasons?  I will assume career; for me the two lists would be different.
Berra, Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Schmidt, infield--Williams, Mays, Mantle and Ruth dh--backup pitcher Pedro Martinez (he had the best two yr. total in history)--Stengel has to manage!!!

Too we don't live close enough together, for I have a board game (Strat-O-Matic) in which I have the cards for those two teams in both 3 yrs bests and career stats.  We could do a face-to-face 7 game series and I'd show you my team was the best! :))
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2017, 05:57:34 PM »
I guess this is my favorite historical figure:







Not bad, huh?
God Not Found
"FRAUD. The life of commerce, the soul of religion, the bait of courtship, and the basis of political power."
Ambrose Bierce

Offline TJ

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2017, 02:15:48 AM »
My favorite historical figure is Jesus Christ.

The historian H. G. Wells said that a man’s greatness can be measured by ‘what he leaves to grow, and whether he started others to think along fresh lines with a vigor that persisted after him.’ Wells acknowledged: “By this test Jesus stands first.”

Alexander the Great, Charlemagne the Great, and Napoleon Bonaparte were powerful rulers. By their formidable presence, they wielded great influence over those they commanded. Yet, Napoleon is reported to have said: “Jesus Christ has influenced and commanded His subjects without His visible bodily presence.”

By his dynamic teachings and by the way he lived in harmony with them, Jesus has powerfully affected the lives of people for nearly two thousand years. As one writer aptly expressed it:

“All the armies that ever marched, and all the navies that ever were built, and all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned, put together have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully.”

Offline pr126

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2017, 04:20:33 AM »
Ghengis Khan. Conquered the world on a fucking horse with a bow and arrow. "Mercy is the seed of regret". The wonderful historian and Khan expert Harold Lamb wrote several books about the man. Good stuff.
No way.
Who is following him today?

No, my choiche  is Muhammad.
Dead for 14 centuries, and his followers are 1.5 billion, just as a nice, tolerant and peaceful as he was.

Say a bad word about him in public and you are dead meat.

No other historical figure reaches out from the grave to kick your arse to hell.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 05:41:27 AM by pr126 »
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -  Voltaire

Offline Cavebear

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2017, 05:28:26 AM »
To make matters worse, do you pick your team using career stats--or top 1/2 seasons?  I will assume career; for me the two lists would be different.
Berra, Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Schmidt, infield--Williams, Mays, Mantle and Ruth dh--backup pitcher Pedro Martinez (he had the best two yr. total in history)--Stengel has to manage!!!

Too we don't live close enough together, for I have a board game (Strat-O-Matic) in which I have the cards for those two teams in both 3 yrs bests and career stats.  We could do a face-to-face 7 game series and I'd show you my team was the best! :))

Well, when you get down to it, no proof but on the field, and that can't ever happen.  *sigh*
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2017, 08:47:50 AM »
Well, when you get down to it, no proof but on the field, and that can't ever happen.  *sigh*
Next time you are in CA, let me know.  The cards and a room are waiting! :))
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2017, 01:15:23 AM »
Abraham Lincoln, his quotes are great .