Author Topic: favorite historical figure?  (Read 9028 times)

Offline aitm

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2015, 02:38:35 PM »
That mongol-turkic monster?! Killed how many milions of people again?

History is replete with hundreds of people who are just as ruthless, some on smaller scales some the same, nonetheless, he was a boy, maybe 14 (if I recall) when he started gathering his followers. Perhaps the stories were a bit over the top, but I was enamored by them, and yes i was much younger. The "staff of nine yak tails" (if that was a real thing) was a pretty good story.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2015, 03:08:20 PM »
History is replete with hundreds of people who are just as ruthless, some on smaller scales some the same, nonetheless, he was a boy, maybe 14 (if I recall) when he started gathering his followers. Perhaps the stories were a bit over the top, but I was enamored by them, and yes i was much younger. The "staff of nine yak tails" (if that was a real thing) was a pretty good story.

Yes, sure there are many ruthless filth...but aitm, I mean... Ghengis Khan? :lol: *Shakes head.

Offline aitm

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2015, 10:04:34 PM »
Yes, sure there are many ruthless filth...but aitm, I mean... Ghengis Khan? :lol: *Shakes head.
Shoe, I await your choice.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2015, 08:30:14 AM »
OK. If I have to choose, it is going to be Russian navy officer Vasili Alexandrovich Arkhipov then.

I'm grateful to him for what he did in 27th of October 1962. He probably saved my life -along with the most of the world- before I was born. Turkey actively allied with USA and Italy in Cubean Missile Crisis against USSR and Cuba. If a nuclear war broke out that day the country was an open target. I wouldn't have existed. Most soldiers would just obey their superior's order. He didn't.

Another one. A couple of years ago, Pavlo Bondarev, an Ukranian young man aged 24, saved the lives of two 8 year old kids. He didn't even know them, saw them there that morning. He was waiting for the bus to work at the bus stop. He realises a car getting out of control and coming towards to the kids with great speed. He jumps and throws the kids away, save their lives. He dies in hospital later. This happens on his mother's birthday. Every fucking piece of shit media source should have given that news. Because that's the big fucking news on this planet. It makes me sob every time I remember it.








« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 09:03:28 AM by drunkenshoe »

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2015, 09:16:28 AM »
Redundant
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Shiranu

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2015, 10:22:44 AM »
The two most obvious for me are MLK and Ghandi, both of which probably need little explaining. In short, I respect them for their effort to make social change through peaceful methods, especially Ghandi because of the sheer scale of his efforts not just in India and South Africa but also for inspiring men like MLK and Nelson Mandela. Their work in peaceful solutions to oppressive and violent authority I think shows the most effective way to deal with said problem; when you fight these things with violence of your own, you only end up with more violent people in power.

Also on my list; Nelson Mandela, again for obvious reasons.

One who is historically questioned I will include is Dido. Although most of her stories come from legend rather than historical "fact", the fact of the matter is that for a thousand and a half more years, people truly believed this was "the truth". Her tricking of king Iarbas into giving her land (asking only for what she could surround with cowhide as a place for refugee, she cut the pieces into super-fine strips and encased a hill, which would become the city of Carthage) is a great story of wit. Likewise she is a female character of antiquity with brains.

I would also be tempted to add Odysseus and Dante (whom's life was interesting in itself), but that's probably getting too make believe :P.

I'll add more later, just busy getting ready for work now.
"I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." - Mahatma Gandi

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2015, 10:35:36 AM »
Yeah, I would definitely agree with Gandhi in my list.

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2015, 12:17:40 PM »
Ditto!
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2015, 12:35:49 PM »
Isn't interesting how all the great leaders, historical or not, who preached peace and love were assassinated like: Christ, Gandhi, JFK  and King even in our own time, and yet the most war like or ruthless, and unethical are made hero's like: God, Truman, Jung Kin, Bush and his cohorts, Trump, Edison etc.? Is this what Freud meant by "death wish?"   :doh:
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Offline aitm

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2015, 01:17:28 PM »
Isn't interesting how….most war like or ruthless, and unethical are made hero's

I suggest the nature of humans are seen in the behavior of the child. We have all seen children play and they are first and foremost about themselves and their possessions. So our nature is rather brutish. We have to train our children and ourselves to be more ethical and loving.

Over the last several years we have seen multiple videos of natural born "enemies" in the animal world who when raised together not only have no animosity towards each other but a down right "loving" relationship which seems to counter what we were taught as youngsters that yes indeed momma cheetah has to teach the kids to hunt but perhaps it is not natural at all that they want to kill the antelope, they were taught too.

I suppose that many humans still adore the war-like champion due to the inherent violent tendencies we have buried not so deep in our dark little cellar.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2015, 02:16:35 PM »
I suggest the nature of humans are seen in the behavior of the child.

I'm told that I never have been grumpy once as a child up to 11 years or something or NEVER cried as a baby and as a toddler. They brought me to my doctor when I was a little baby at some point because of this -when I was 2-2,5 at the nursery's first day, the kiddie car arrives at home at 21:00 with a great delay and while every toddler naturally scream their head of with dirty dipers, I wave smiling *hi mom! - something alarmed my therapist- and also played with my peers and got scared when they started to cry because it freaked me out. Never hit or pushed anyone. Also didn't cry when I injured myself and just went to my mom with 'I split my head' covered in blood. It's very alien to me, probbaly I did cry a few times but nothing big happened so people don't remember. Apparently, I also went around by myself, like totally just leave in a sec under everyone's nose and then came back after freaking out people to death. I didn't hang around with my peers after some time playing and just leave to play by myself.  And didn't have any sense of possession to a very weird degree. Like leaving everything just there when I am finished, never carrying around anything or had a favourite toy or gave my toys away to others around. Also spit anything remotely sweet tasting when fed and absolutely refuse to eat or swallow. Hated chocolate. Although it doesn't have to do anything with intelligence, if I didn't start to speak freakishly early -seriously, apparently it creeped people out- they would probably end up sending me to some school for the mentally handicapped.  :sad2: Esp. thinking that I apparently talked to myself a lot. And I talked so fast untill I was a young adult, it has always been a problem all my life. I sometimes think it's a miracle that I survived without any scars or bad memories.

I still don't have a sense of possession much, I always hated shopping, shiny things and big houses and even if I want to have something very much I easily forget about it. I cry easily as an adult, but it is VERY difficult for me to ask for help. I hate to kill even flies, but I am not bad with mosquitos, but they rarely bite me. And I always hated poeple going around in groups too close like a clan.  Esp. girls going around in packs and always conflicted with them until the university years. I was always blamed with not to follow through. I started to eat chocolate at 30. Bitter ones. I still detes sweet taste. But I don't talk that fast anymore, but still fast for most people.

This^ is an that adult couldn't learn and pretty much grew up as the same person.

And I can't be the only one. What you describe in essence is not that common. Children, humans mostly learn it by imitating it. I don't mean we born with a tabula rasa of course. Sometimes, like me, they don't learn. May be, because they are stupid or weird or this and that. But mostly we are weird. We just imitate to fit in. That's the thing with violence and children. They see it everywhere. And they imitate it, get to like it and admire it, because it is the never ending trend in human culture. They fit in.   

« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 08:06:00 AM by drunkenshoe »

Offline aitm

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2015, 02:25:27 PM »
I disagree, you're just a weird cat. :P~~
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2015, 02:56:34 PM »
I disagree, you're just a weird cat. :P~~
:lol:

Me? Weird?  :snooty:

Offline peacewithoutgod

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2015, 03:37:50 PM »
I suggest the nature of humans are seen in the behavior of the child. We have all seen children play and they are first and foremost about themselves and their possessions. So our nature is rather brutish. We have to train our children and ourselves to be more ethical and loving.

Over the last several years we have seen multiple videos of natural born "enemies" in the animal world who when raised together not only have no animosity towards each other but a down right "loving" relationship which seems to counter what we were taught as youngsters that yes indeed momma cheetah has to teach the kids to hunt but perhaps it is not natural at all that they want to kill the antelope, they were taught too.

I suppose that many humans still adore the war-like champion due to the inherent violent tendencies we have buried not so deep in our dark little cellar.


When it comes to ideas which we are taught, we often tend to presume too much the weight of the influence of teaching. I'm not saying children should be taught less, but that it should be individualized a lot more based on the natural traits which they exhibit, rather than the futile attempts which have been made to change less desired behaviors. For example, the idea that animals are born able to crawl, communicate, walk, run, and sometimes even climb on their day of birth, and since the human infant can do nothing but suck at a mother's breast, then it must be a "Blank Slate", whose future behaviors are entirely subject to environmental factors and teaching. Some groups really get up in arms and extremely irrational in shouting down any challenge to this idea, but the facts on genetic research have revealed strong evidence that human behavior is also (to at least some extent) genetically influenced. You cannot really mold a human mind like a piece of clay, some are naturally more inclined to take chances than others, some are naturally more inclined to be thoughtful, and others will be naturally more emotional.

Your example demonstrates that animals are not behaviorally ruled by the wisdom of instinct, they can learn to get along. Well of course they can, as do human children. If it takes humans more time, then it happens to be true that simpler animals are born with fully functioning brains, while the human newborn hasn't the hardware behind its eyes to see properly, nor the muscular control to do so much as roll over on its own. Of course all animals are born selfish, how could one not be when the only life form which it has ever known was itself while passing through the birth canal? Experience is the teacher of all living creatures, and it certainly takes experience for one to learn unselfishness.

Everything we learn takes experience, but some individuals may learn more of one trait than of others by the infuence of their genes, just as some may have blue eyes and others some other color. Education is an important means of focusing on desirable traits, but those who pretend it can make anyone the perfect servant, the perfect soldier, the perfect leader, or the perfect anything are foolish. When education is focused on the needs of the group instead of on bringing out the best in the individual, you will end up with a population similar to America as it now is. It isn't education which defines our human nature, it's our genes! Furthermore, these behavioral variances are distributed throughout all cultures and races, so I hope nobody's going to be like the shitheads who have called me a "racist" just for stating what is so plain to see. My experience is that those who angrily oppose any challenge to the supreme influence of education and upbringing are those who wish to wield god-like power over the human mind, because they are very angry and selfish people.  I'm just trying to point out how the nature of each individual is itself individual. Remember, evolution never worked on any species, only the genes of individuals.
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

Offline aitm

Re: favorite historical figure?
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2015, 04:01:49 PM »
I'm not saying children should be taught less, but that it should be individualized a lot more based on the natural traits which they exhibit
nice idea but cost prohibitive most likely, we can't determine that a child who kicks a cat is going to be a psycho let alone how to teach them to their potential

Quote
You cannot really mold a human mind like a piece of clay, some are naturally more inclined to take chances than others

Ture dat, some are plain out lazy.
 
Quote
I'm just trying to point out how the nature of each individual is itself individual
No argument, a stroll down any city street will attest that we have the whole gamut in the human species from "normal" to fuckin whack-a-doodle square.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust