Was approving air strikes against PKK America's worst error...

[drunkenshoe]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/turkey-conflict-with-kurds-was-approving-air-strikes-against-the-pkk-americas-worst-error-in-the-middle-east-since-the-iraq-war-10417381.html

This looks like a good summary to me.

Turkey conflict with Kurds: Was approving air strikes against PKK America's worst error in the Middle East since the Iraq War?

Kurdish guerrillas have killed two Turkish soldiers in an ambush in south-east Turkey as fighting resumes between Turkish security forces and Kurdish militants, ending a two-year-old ceasefire. The attack came after Turkish aircraft heavily bombed bases of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) in the Qandil Mountains in northern Iraq.

In a sign that the PKK has resumed military operations against the government, a Turkish army vehicle on a road near Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city, was hit by bomb blasts followed by rifle fire, according to the army. A further four soldiers were wounded in the attack.

The attack came in response to a heavy air raid by Turkish aircraft on PKK bases in the Qandil Mountains in northern Iraq on Saturday â€" ostensibly part of a new Turkish offensive against terrorist groups, said also to be aimed at Isis.

But it came as the US was accused by Kurds of tolerating a renewed Turkish government assault on its Kurdish minority as the price for permission for US aircraft to use Turkey’s Incirlik air base against Isis jihadists for the first time.

“The Americans are not very clever in calculating this sort of thing,” said Kamran Karadaghi, an Iraqi Kurdish commentator and former chief of staff to the Iraqi President, Jalal Talabani. “Maybe they calculate that with Turkey involved on their side, they don’t need the Kurds.”

The US denies giving the go-ahead for Turkish attacks on the PKK in return for American use of Turkish air bases, or of any link with Turkish action against Isis fighters and volunteers, who were previously able to move fairly freely across Turkey’s 550-mile border with Syria.

But whatever America was hoping for, initial signs are that the Turkish government may be more interested in moving against the Kurds in Turkey, Syria and Iraq than it is in attacking Isis. Ankara has previously said that it considers both the PKK and Isis to be “terrorists”.

READ MORE: TURKEY JOINS WEST AS A RELUCTANT ALLY - BUT WHAT TOOK IT SO LONG?

Meanwhile, Turkish police have stepped up suppression of all types of dissent â€" using water cannon against everybody from activists to members of the heterodox Shia Alevi sect, who number several million and claim they are discriminated against. Over the weekend, 1,000 people who demonstrated in Ankara for peace were detained, their wrists held together by what were said to be especially tight and painful plastic handcuffs.

The result is that the US may find it has helped to destabilise Turkey by involving it in the war in both Iraq and Syria, yet without coming much closer to defeating Isis in either country. If so, America will have committed its biggest mistake in the Middle East since it invaded Iraq in 2003, believing it could overthrow Saddam Hussein and replace him with a pro-American government.

On Sunday night, the Turkish foreign ministry announced that it had called an extraordinary council meeting of Nato, of which Turkey is a member, on Tuesday to discuss its operations against both the PKK and Isis, “in view of the seriousness of the situation after the heinous terrorist attacks in recent days”. It said Turkey would inform allies of the measures it was taking following last week’s Isis  suicide bombing near Turkey’s border with Syria that left 32 people dead, and an Isis attack on Turkish forces that killed a soldier.

The move to involve the alliance in discussion of the threat to Turkey came under Article 4 of Nato’s founding Washington Treaty, which allows countries whose security is threatened to consult with the other 27 members.

Turkey has become increasingly unstable and violent over the past two years as President Recep Tayiip Erdogan has tried to consolidate his grip on power, even as his AKP party lost its parliamentary majority in last month’s general election. 

A possible interpretation of the Turkish government assault on Isis, PKK and other opposition groups is that Mr Erdogan intends to win the new election expected by many later this year if no governing coalition with other parties can be formed in the meantime. He would then try to win a majority on the back of a wave of anti-Kurdish and anti-terrorist nationalism, fuelled by revulsion against attacks by the PKK and Isis.

America’s problem is that its most effective ally against Isis in Syria so far has been the PYD, the ruling political party of the 2.2 million Syrian Kurds, who are concentrated in three enclaves just south of the Turkish border. The PYD and its paramilitary forces, known as the People’s Protection Units or YPG, are the Syrian branch of the PKK. Helped since last year by US air support, they have repelled Isis from its siege of the city of Kobani and have won a series of further victories against the jihadist group. including the capture of an important border crossing at Tal Abyad.

While allying itself with the Kurds in Syria, the US denounces their mother organisation, the PKK, as “terrorists”. The White House spokesman, Ben Rhodes, said: “The US, of course, recognises the PKK specifically as a terrorist organisation. And, so, again Turkey has a right to take action related to terrorist targets.”

He did not add that the US had been supplying Turkish intelligence with information about PKK bases in Iraq  since 2007.

This is a peculiarly Machiavellian form of realpolitik since members of the YPG often gained military experience fighting in the PKK against the Turks, explaining why they have had more success against Isis than other groups. In fact, Isis may benefit from the US switch in alliances because some PYD fighters in Syria will now return to fighting the Turkish army.

Omar Sheikhmous, a veteran Syrian Kurdish leader living abroad, believes that when it comes to the fight against Isis, “on balance the involvement of Turkey may be more important than that of the Kurds for the Americans”.

But how far Turkey will really engage against Isis in Syria is unclear. It says it wants to declare a buffer zone, cleared of Isis fighters, west of Kobani, but at the same time the Deputy Prime Minister, Bulent Arinc, said at the weekend that  Turkey was “not thinking” of committing ground troops.

Turkey is arresting Isis activists, many of whom, Turkish opposition parties note, were previously living untroubled by the Turkish security forces. Halis Bayancuk, the reputed Isis leader in Turkey, has been arrested just as he was a year ago â€" on which occasion he was soon released, and the police who detained him sent to prison instead. The shift by America towards Turkey and against the Kurds may have further ramifications for the balance of power in the region.

The US will undoubtedly be able to strengthen its air offensive against Isis, enabled to keep more planes in the skies above the self-declared caliphate because the Incirlik base is only 60 miles from the Syrian border. On the other hand, about 400 US air strikes were unable to prevent Isis capturing Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province, on 17 May.

There may be other repercussions from the new Turkish-American alignment. One reason for the Turkish action was that Ankara did not like the way the Syrian Kurds were becoming a favourite US ally. They were also concerned that the US-Iran nuclear deal with Iran risked making Tehran more important than Ankara in Washington’s  calculations.


It is likely that America will tolerate Turkish action against the PKK in Qanduk and Turkey but block any Turkish army moves to push into the Kurdish enclave in north-east Syria. But the PKK may, meanwhile, seek support from Iran and from the Syrian government in Damascus, with which it formerly had close relations.

Open US support, what Turkish gov has at stake porduced very dangerous politics again.  I'm guessing this will get back to us as random terrorist attacks from both groups and creation of new terrorist groups. Only fuck knows what is going on behind and the extention of the mutual talks and agreements. Incirlik might never get closed in for a long time.

The emergency Nato meeting is tomorrow at noon. It's reported that Turkey is going to ask for help.

This is all so wrong. Same thing is happening all over again. However, this time something tells me there will be dropping troops and that is the beginning of end I suppose. 

[Solitary]

How did our world get so fucked up in such a short time? It has always been, there are just more people and better weapons now.

[Shiranu]

Because we didn't learn our lesson the last dozen or so times, I suppose...

[baronvonrort]

Your article says the USA denied giving Turkey permission to attack the Kurds,how is this America's error?

Is this another case of muslims never do anything wrong it's always the USA and Israel who should be blamed?

We know the Turks have problems with the PKK whose founder and leader Abdullah Ocalan is atheist, how does attacking Kurds in Syria and Iraq help peace in Turkey?

It's not the first time Turkey has attacked Kurds in Iraq,the Turks have bombed the Kurds in Iraq numerous times over the last decade and not a single muslim or Islamic country has ever condemned this.

drunkenshoe, when did Turkey stop persecuting Kurds for speaking their own language and allow them to speak and teach the Kurdish language in Turkey,how recent was this?

[baronvonrort]

Interview with Polat Can from the YPG

The Kurds are one of the major ethnic groups in the region just like the Arabs,Persians and Turks.Kurdish is the oldest nationality in this area.The Turks came to the region with the Mongols and the Seljuks one thousand years ago and the Arabs came with their campaigns that imposed Islam 1400 years ago.
However we are deprived of all national rights- they divided us,we have endured ethnic cleansing,they have restricted our linguistic and cultural rights and they have erased our civilisation from their books.
For more than a hundred years we have conducted revolutions against injustice persecution and crimes.

We believe in co existence and brotherhood among all nationalities and ethnicities in the region.We respect the identities of all components of our society including Kurds,Arabs,Christians and Turkmens.
Our units respects women rights.Women play a significant role in incorporation,regulation and resistance at all levels

Turkey has a phobia against all things having to do with Kurds and Kurdistan,and Turkey's president Erdogan publicly said that he will do everything possible to prevent the Kurds in Syria from obtaining their rights.
dckurd.org/2015/07/28/interview-with-polat-can-the-representative-of-the-peoples-protection-units-to-the-international-coalition

The Kurds respect womens rights,what did that dickhead Erdogan say about women?
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30183711

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Seems to me Erdogan would sell his own mother into slavery if it meant staying in power and right now he seems to have the blessing of Washington to sell her to the highest bidder as long as the AFB is secure for use by "coalition forces" which means the people who sell weapons and profiteer from death and destruction.

[Shiranu]

Your article says the USA denied giving Turkey permission to attack the Kurds,how is this America's error?

It is likely that America will tolerate Turkish action against the PKK in Qanduk and Turkey but block any Turkish army moves to push into the Kurdish enclave in north-east Syria.

[drunkenshoe]

Oh wow. Somebody tell the morons called baronvonrort and Hydra that they are barking at the wrong tree.

Do I look like I am supporting these policies you little shitheads? Can you even read?

[baronvonrort]

drunkenshoe, when did Turkey stop persecuting Kurds for speaking their own language and allow them to speak and teach the Kurdish language in Turkey,how recent was this?

I see you are avoiding this question and resorting to abuse

[drunkenshoe]

I see you are avoiding this question and resorting to abuse

You are not posting here to have some discussion about Kurds. You wouldn't even have an idea what was going on if didn't post those threads. You don't know the first thing about the subject and your only motivation is to create conflict with me from the beginning. You don't read what is posted. You are not just ignorant, you are also stupid. I'm not name calling, you are really stupid. And you do not mean good. I have told you that I depised you a few times openly. You perfectly know that I don't respect you. So stop posting to me.

[baronvonrort]

It was a simple question why are you avoiding it Drunken hoe?

Why does Erdogan say the Kurds are just as bad as the Islamic state,why would you attack people like this?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKhjJfH0ra4
It looks like women are treated well with Kurdish society,what did Erdogan say about women?
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30183711

The Kurds recognise the Armenian genocide,why do the Turks deny it?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_recognition_of_the_Armenian_genocide

[Hydra009]

Oh wow. Somebody tell the morons called baronvonrort and Hydra that they are barking at the wrong tree.

Do I look like I am supporting these policies you little shitheads? Can you even read?

I wonder sometimes if you are capable of that yourself.  Or capable of disagreeing with someone without throwing these immature tantrums (tantrums you are now infamous for around here), apparently even to the point of yet again getting seriously butthurt about me upvoting someone's perfectly good point that just happens to contradict yours.

The simple fact is that you are factually wrong here.  Your article, which you agreed with, claimed that the U.S. approved these airstrikes.  This is not the case.  The Turkish government planned and carried out these strikes much to the US's chagrin.  While the US does have considerable international sway, it does not have absolute control over all the actions of its allies, especially a particularly intractable one like Erogan's administration, which seemed much more focused on bombing Kurds and Assad loyalists than ISIS until quite recently.  The Turkish government was deadset on a retaliatory strike against the PKK, and the international community, the US included, failed to talk them out of it, though both the US and the rest of NATO have been urging restraint and a return to the peace process.  That's a hell of a different story than the one you've tried to paint.

The White House has publicly sided with Turkey, endorsing the NATO ally's right to defend itself against recent deadly attacks in Turkey by the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK. But Iraq's prime minister says the Turkish strikes violate Iraq's sovereignty, and U.S. officials have quietly signaled they're urging Turkey to lay off.

While defending Turkey publicly, the U.S. has been urging Turkey to be "judicious" in its retaliation against the PKK, senior U.S. officials said.

White House spokesman Eric Schultz called Wednesday for "a return to the peaceful solution process," but Turkey's prime minister shot down that prospect until the PKK withdraws its armed fighters from Turkey.

But the White House has rejected claims that Obama agreed to look the other way to secure Turkey's help against IS. Although Turkey began shelling Islamic State and Kurdish targets on the same day, the administration insists there's no connection.

"I understand the coincidence of all of this, but it is just that," said State Department spokesman John Kirby.

Likewise, senior U.S. officials said Turkey agreed two weeks ago to let the U.S. launch airstrikes from Incirlik and elsewhere in Turkey. That was before the PKK killed two policemen in Turkey and took credit for it, which the officials said was the reason Turkey struck the Kurds.

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015/07/29/obama-and-the-kurds-turkish-strikes-vex-islamic-state-plan

[drunkenshoe]

The simple fact is that you are factually wrong here.  Your article, which you agreed with, claimed that the U.S. approved these airstrikes.  This is not the case.  The Turkish government planned and carried out these strikes much to the US's chagrin.  While the US does have considerable international sway, it does not have absolute control over all the actions of its allies, especially a particularly intractable one like Erogan's administration, which seemed much more focused on bombing Kurds and Assad loyalists than ISIS until quite recently.  The Turkish government was deadset on a retaliatory strike against the PKK, and the international community, the US included, failed to talk them out of it, though both the US and the rest of NATO have been

USA's chagrin? Oh my... USA officially declared that Turkey has a right to defend itself against PKK out of its borders. Word by word. They could have stayed silent, say something along the lines that this is not the way to do it...etc. But that happens only if it is against their benefits or in your fantasy worlds kiddo. In the real world, policies imposed by states and govs don't work with human emotions and thoughts. They just get what they can and leave nothing behind. Human life doesn't mean shit.

The article offers a very good interpretation what is really going on, hence the title. It's not my title.  The expression, 'APPROVED' is used because US was the only force that can stop it, you moron. More than that they fully supported it and along with them even Iran spoke out the same, no need to mention the others. Without full US support, it would have been impossible. Turkish gov wouldn't have dared just for the political consequences.

And US bought the deal in a second with the rights of full access to Incirlik base which has always been the strongest bargain chip between two countries since it was founded in early 50s. It saves huge amount of money and provides very practical, easy access. And the fucking gov here is going to use that till the end. If you had an idea what is happening here right now, you could may be -some how I still doubt it- get an idea that this is all something big BEYOND getting revenge.

You are living in a delusion that your country's international policies somehow make sense or based around some scruples or politics to provide balance or even peace, prevent life loss. You do not know the first thing about world politics, what happened so far, how things arrived to this point which you keep demonstrating openly. 

I'm not a passive agressive 20 smt kid like you who can't think for himself and only gets triggered when somebody points out the catastrophic consequences of the international policies of his country. My reaction is to express my general despise I feel for you and the other poster. You are cheap team supporters. Hydra, there is no difference between how you feel or think about your favourite game/anime/tv show and your country; international/domestic policies it forces and the events happening around it. You are incapable of having an opinion, let alone a critical one. You are a fucking nationalist. The only reason you are clicking my posts in specific threads is to like others who seems to post against me, because you can't unlike mine, doesn't matter where they stand, what they say...Most times, you don't even know what's the conversation about, you don't need to.

On the other hand, if there was an organised, militarised group attacking around and killing people for any reason in your country -or the country the simpleton known as baronvonrort lives-  the naked agression that would pour out from your posts would probably be physically sickening for anyone to read. Oh wait, any native groups lived in both US or Australia WERE WIPED OUT as a result of series of genocides have gone for hundreds of years and it is not even offically recognised. So you are safe, eh?

Millions of people here have voted -including me- to get the Kurdish party in to the parliement and so this war would end so they would have a voice, against all the propaganda, against the government and all other parties, completely ignoring the thousands of life loss including a great amount of civilians. While a big amount of Kurds have voted for the religious gov for years, still do, because they are ignorant, religious and basically don't give a fuck even about their own as long as their bread is buttered. You scream your heads off when 2 people are killed as a result of domestic terrorism.

Now, with the APPROVAL of your country just to get their way; cutting war expenses -as its their number 1 industry- for easy access, and plus what who knows, it is all gone to NOTHING. MONEY and POWER. And this will come back to all of us WITH NEW TERRORIST GROUPS, new fragments, new wars. There was an attack to a public bus full of civilians just after the bombings AROUND MY HOUSE in the CITY. I'd like to see you support freedom of another nation in your borders when bombs going off around the place you live, you little shit. They are going to declare everyone that supports peace virtually guilty of treason. We won't even be able to talk about it openly. Have you ever talked about something like that against the majority openly in your country? I have. It's just sheer luck nothing happened to me. Most of you are hiding your positions as atheists in the USA and with your constantly hyped up 'freedom of speech' and beloved fantasy of a constitution in fear of disrupting your daily life. People here are out there getting arrested running in the streets to protest openly AND they don't even have the half rights to protect them against the government. 

Turkish gov. is making propaganda against the Kurdish party, started to say they are openly supporting terrorism and if so they should be CLOSED. That's the new propaganda. Like they did to the other Kurdish parties we voted for. A politicial party officially voted in to the parliement, think about that. That is as much beneficial to US policies as it is to Turkish. You know why? Because Kurdish party is a real LEFT party and if they gain any power and start effecting domestic policies in Turkey with the other secular social democatic party THEN they won't obey American bullshit imposed in domestic affairs, and country will go back to its secular times to heal. And when that happens -like it was before untill a religious party came to the power in the first time in 90 smt years with full American support- THEN Turkey is USELESS to USA to use in the Middle East. A SECULAR, PEACEFUL MUSLIM COUNTRY is HARMFUL to American international policy. Next time you look down your nose at people living in the Middle East try to start from your end to figure out what's been going on and force some blood in to your brain and try some empathy. 


And when I get pissed off and tell you brain dead piece of shits what you are, I am having a 'tantrum' that I am famous with, because I can't stand disagreement, eh? GO FUCK YOURSELF.

This conversation is over. Next time stick to that ignore button, just click 'likes' and play with your ponies. 

[Hakurei Reimu]

You are living in a delusion that your country's international policies somehow make sense or based around some scruples or politics to provide balance or even peace, prevent life loss. You do not know the first thing about world politics, what happened so far, how things arrived to this point which you keep demonstrating openly.

And this is a perfect example of why you're not listened to. I don't think anyone here (except the Comedy Show) thinks that our policy in the middle east is squeaky clean. Unfortunately, there is this mental tick we all suffer from called, "we're kind of stuck with it." As George Carlin brilliantly pointed out, Americans always had a problem with pulling out.

Anyway, we're not all-powerful there. That was clear since the "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner over Bush the Stupid's head more than a decade ago. We're there in force, but not really in control. The scary thing is, nobody really is in control.

[drunkenshoe]

And this is a perfect example of why you're not listened to. I don't think anyone here (except the Comedy Show) thinks that our policy in the middle east is squeaky clean. Unfortunately, there is this mental tick we all suffer from called, "we're kind of stuck with it." As George Carlin brilliantly pointed out, Americans always had a problem with pulling out.

Anyway, we're not all-powerful there. That was clear since the "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner over Bush the Stupid's head more than a decade ago. We're there in force, but not really in control. The scary thing is, nobody really is in control.

The specific people I wrote that post in this thread have regularly denied that many times whenever it came up. So may be, you shouldn't put yourself in the same place with them or get apologist.

It's not about  somebody being all powerful. We are talking about a series of specific acts just done in the last fews days. There are literally a few hours between USA getting full access to Incirlik base and Turkish jet squads bombing Syria and Northern Irak. I am not building up some conspiracy theory. 

The reason I am not listened is that because I keep telling things people do not want to hear or don't care. If I wasn't here in this forum, nobody even would post about this. Anything that is really worth talking directly about what the hell is going on as a result of American international policy either never gets posted or gets completely ignored. If somebody dares to post something and clearly expresses 'look ...this is what's going on...' the hypocritical bullshit created here in this forum can race with fucking Fox channel.

You are not stuck with anything. You are at the other side of the world. There was/is no direct relation between the US and the Middle East except militarising groups against Russia in the past and then war policies created for oil, other benefits and power. It's deliberate policies pursued for a long time.  We are the one who is stuck. Stuck with our own government, also with your government's bullshit policies created that it has been piling upon us for decades. We are directly under threat as a result of it. It's getting worse and worse. And you are defining it as 'not squeaky clean policies'.  while same thing is happening over and over again.

There is a very big difference between sitting in front a computer spewing bullshit and target people personally when safe and watching everything you support go to ashes when yourself and the place you live in danger. Oh of course all this is for people evolved enough to consider other people living in the Middle East and some other parts of the world as human beings. (The posters I targeted up there)