Surprise surprise. .another shooting

[Mike Cl]

But very few of the shootings here in Australia target innocents. Most are bikey gangs and drugs wars. At least they are shooting each other, and not school kids, or those trying to enjoy a movie. There's not much workplace violence either, compared to America. Maybe it's the 38 hour work week?

That's good to know.  And good for Australia.  And I bet you don't get many of the incidents where a 3 yr. old gets a gun from mommy's purse and then kills her or a sibling, either.  Or of the 6 yr old who gets daddy's rifle and blows away a friend.  We get this stuff all the time.  I did not look this up, but I seem to remember that most of the killings with guns in the US is of family members of the gun owners.  And if not the most, then it is still a big chunk of it--that has to be tragic in the extreme.

[TomFoolery]

Moreover, in the U.S., more guns has consistently been linked to higher rates of suicide:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/

Many people assume that suicidal people will kill themselves no matter what and that method availability is of no consequence, that is, if they didn't have a gun in the home they would just take a bunch of pills or jump off a bridge. Method choice is unique to individuals for a variety of reasons, and firearms are often chosen (particularly by males) as a means of ensuring a quick and relatively painless death. Unfortunately, firearms cause such immediate, massive injury that most cases don't make it to the hospital for treatment (as we would see with other methods of suicide attempts) but rather go straight to the morgue.

[Mike Cl]

Moreover, in the U.S., more guns has consistently been linked to higher rates of suicide:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/

Many people assume that suicidal people will kill themselves no matter what and that method availability is of no consequence, that is, if they didn't have a gun in the home they would just take a bunch of pills or jump off a bridge. Method choice is unique to individuals for a variety of reasons, and firearms are often chosen (particularly by males) as a means of ensuring a quick and relatively painless death. Unfortunately, firearms cause such immediate, massive injury that most cases don't make it to the hospital for treatment (as we would see with other methods of suicide attempts) but rather go straight to the morgue.

I think that is true.  If I were at a stage of wanting to commit suicide, I'd opt for the most painless and easiest method I can avail myself of.  A gun would be first choice.  But I cannot rely on a gun always being available for me.  My father was an example of this.  He was in the last stages of emphysema, had to wear oxygen mask at all times and could hardly  move.  Reading got him through the  ordeal to a certain point, but he could no longer hold a book and turn the pages.  And we have never owned guns, so there were none in the house.  While my mother was napping one day, he taped a vacuum cleaner hose to the exhaust of the car in the garage, started the car and taped the hose through the window as well.  And taped the window shut.  He died in that manner.   If a person is determined enough, they will suicide by whatever means they have at their disposal--guns or not. 

[TomFoolery]

If a person is determined enough, they will suicide by whatever means they have at their disposal--guns or not.

For some people, that is true, but suicide is undoubtable a complex issue. Someone suffering from emphysema choosing to end their life is emotionally in a different place than a middle-aged man who has just lost his job or a teen being bullied. Generally, people opting for suicide in response to life situations tend to be more impulsive in that moment than someone seeking to end their suffering. When guns aren't available, they may possibly turn to other methods like pills or cutting their wrists or self-asphyxiation, but by these methods many people suffering from situational depression have a way out and often take it, or have someone else intervene on their behalf. You can slit your wrists or take an entire bottle of pain killers and still seek help if you regret your choice, which statistically often happens. That often isn't a choice after you've shot yourself in the head.

If you check out the link I posted, it explains how method barriers are actually far more effective in preventing suicide than most people are really aware of and sort of dispels the myth that suicidal people will ALWAYS find a way.

[Mike Cl]

For some people, that is true, but suicide is undoubtable a complex issue. Someone suffering from emphysema choosing to end their life is emotionally in a different place than a middle-aged man who has just lost his job or a teen being bullied. Generally, people opting for suicide in response to life situations tend to be more impulsive in that moment than someone seeking to end their suffering. When guns aren't available, they may possibly turn to other methods like pills or cutting their wrists or self-asphyxiation, but by these methods many people suffering from situational depression have a way out and often take it, or have someone else intervene on their behalf. You can slit your wrists or take an entire bottle of pain killers and still seek help if you regret your choice, which statistically often happens. That often isn't a choice after you've shot yourself in the head.

If you check out the link I posted, it explains how method barriers are actually far more effective in preventing suicide than most people are really aware of and sort of dispels the myth that suicidal people will ALWAYS find a way.

I agree with what you say.  Many times suicide is an impulse.  Hell, at times, I have thought of it--no planning, but thinking of how best to do it.  A gun that is in the house can make that impulse a reality very quickly. 

[Baruch]

Early intervention is the best way to survive suicidal thoughts.  You could have euthanasia ... but the problem is, the political system would start to make it ... the preferred choice for seniors etc ... anyone who isn't part of the master race/ideal health.  The Nazis snuffed the mental health patients first.

[baronvonrort]

But very few of the shootings here in Australia target innocents. Most are bikey gangs and drugs wars. At least they are shooting each other, and not school kids, or those trying to enjoy a movie. There's not much workplace violence either, compared to America. Maybe it's the 38 hour work week?

We had 67 firearm homicides in 1995 which was the year before our gun laws were imposed, we had over 400 people killed crossing the road in the same year.
www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

New Zealand has not had a mass shooting since the early 1990's they allow recreational hunters to have semi auto rifles with sound moderators,perhaps regulating who can have guns instead of what type they can have is the answer.

[Baruch]

New Zealand has those Kea parrots that drink the blood of sheep ... there are hazards everywhere.  Australia has salt water crocks and many venomous snakes.  Not all hazards are human.

[Cocoa Beware]

Who is saying that? Besides you, I mean.

This is a tragic event no doubt and I don't want to belittle that. This trend of suicidal people deciding to massacre others before taking their own lives is truly baffling and disturbing.

But once again at the risk of being shunned or flamed or whatever, I have to ask why this tragic news story warrants its own thread here on an athiest forum while these other stories do not. Are the lives of these other people not just as important? Where is the outcry from the athiest community for them? These were all in the news in the last 48 hours and took about 30 seconds to find via google search. Why no threads here for any of them? Not one? I guess we don't give a fuck about people who are killed by mixing booze and cars.

http://www.katc.com/story/29611152/duson-man-charged-in-fatal-car-wreck-in-myrtle-beach
http://www.dailyprogress.com/alcohol-possible-factor-in-fatal-crash-on-u-s-tuesday/article_47d430f6-305f-11e5-8242-2bb0b2b12b12.html
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4236888-181/st-helena-police-alcohol-main
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-23/double-fatal-crash-in-nakara-darwin/6641448
http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/westbrook-man-dies-fatal-crash-gore-highway/2715722/
http://wncn.com/2015/07/23/1-million-bond-set-for-unc-student-charged-in-triple-fatal-crash/

I'm sorry, I dont see how your rhetoric has any traction.

As drunk driving is already illegal, and a sizable portion of gun deaths are unintentional, if anything this might serve better as a case to outlaw firearm possession rather then legitimize it.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

It is because I've been suicidal a large part of my life that I've never owned a gun. There are other reasons, but that's the main reason by far.  I realized long ago that if I bought a gun I'd be dead already  and so as a result I've endured several very painful suicide attempts, but none with a gun. Lucky for me the vast majority of my attempts came at times when I had little to no money to even buy a gun.  What most people don't realize is that killing yourself isn't as easy as it seems especially if you're relatively healthy to begin with. Jumping takes a lot of thought and there's always the chance that you'll either survive,  chicken out or be caught before actually jumping. I always chickened out from fear of heights.
Pills are notoriously unreliable because just finding a lethal dose is difficult and often you'll puke it up anyway. I tried an overdose of heroin and just slept it off and was broke after wasting $150 on dope. Poison is tough to find and is typically quite painful if you don't succeed. I have a lot of scars from suicide attempts and just don't recommend it to anyone without a fool proof plan and even then just to many things can go wrong.
Finally a few years ago,  well more than a few I realized I'm much closer to dying of plain old age than ever and that every time I ever became suicidal if I could just hold out things always got better.
Now, after years of trying to kill myself I'm in the best place I've been emotionally and financially for many years and have much more to live for.
That doesn't mean that I never think about it, but now I'm much better at waiting bad situations out than ever.
The one thing I'll never do is to buy a gun unless I'm absolutely going to use it,but for the price of a gun I can always buy one hell of a shot of heroin and I know more about heroin than I know about guns.

[SGOS]

APA,

Glad you're still here.

[Mike Cl]

It is because I've been suicidal a large part of my life that I've never owned a gun. There are other reasons, but that's the main reason by far.  I realized long ago that if I bought a gun I'd be dead already  and so as a result I've endured several very painful suicide attempts, but none with a gun. Lucky for me the vast majority of my attempts came at times when I had little to no money to even buy a gun.  What most people don't realize is that killing yourself isn't as easy as it seems especially if you're relatively healthy to begin with. Jumping takes a lot of thought and there's always the chance that you'll either survive,  chicken out or be caught before actually jumping. I always chickened out from fear of heights.
Pills are notoriously unreliable because just finding a lethal dose is difficult and often you'll puke it up anyway. I tried an overdose of heroin and just slept it off and was broke after wasting $150 on dope. Poison is tough to find and is typically quite painful if you don't succeed. I have a lot of scars from suicide attempts and just don't recommend it to anyone without a fool proof plan and even then just to many things can go wrong.
Finally a few years ago,  well more than a few I realized I'm much closer to dying of plain old age than ever and that every time I ever became suicidal if I could just hold out things always got better.
Now, after years of trying to kill myself I'm in the best place I've been emotionally and financially for many years and have much more to live for.
That doesn't mean that I never think about it, but now I'm much better at waiting bad situations out than ever.
The one thing I'll never do is to buy a gun unless I'm absolutely going to use it,but for the price of a gun I can always buy one hell of a shot of heroin and I know more about heroin than I know about guns.

I'm rather glad you are such a failure.  :) 

I've thought about how to suicide myself, especially when my dad was sick and then later my mom.  My mother had the perfect out.  She was an insulin taking diabetic.  She lived in Oregon and perused the right to die law.  When recovering from her ovarian cancer surgery, she talked to her surgeon about it.  He was willing to be one of the signers (have to have two MD's sign), but suggested without suggesting it--if you know what I mean--that these forms and the procedure for the right to die process can be complicated.  She was taking insulin.  Sometimes one can make a mistake and take too much, and that was dangerous and could even be fatal.  So, she looked at the surgeon--looked at me--then said she would stop the process.  From then on she always had quite a bit of insulin at all times.  I have evolved into an insulin taking diabetic now, myself.  So, committing suicide no longer is much of a concern for me.   

[baronvonrort]

It is because I've been suicidal a large part of my life that I've never owned a gun. There are other reasons, but that's the main reason by far.  I realized long ago that if I bought a gun I'd be dead already  and so as a result I've endured several very painful suicide attempts, but none with a gun. Lucky for me the vast majority of my attempts came at times when I had little to no money to even buy a gun.  What most people don't realize is that killing yourself isn't as easy as it seems especially if you're relatively healthy to begin with. Jumping takes a lot of thought and there's always the chance that you'll either survive,  chicken out or be caught before actually jumping.

Guns were the most common method of suicide in Australia before 1996, today hanging is the most common method at over 50%.

Taking guns away was supposed to give them more time to reconsider,it takes a lot more effort to hang yourself yet this does not stop people from doing it.

Suicide is a complex issue,we started spending heaps on mental health in the 1990's to reduce our suicide rate which gets absolutely no credit as people insist our gun laws alone were responsible for this reduction.
Japan has a high suicide rate and very few guns,they send the families cleanup bills when people jump in front of trains.

[Shiranu]

Guns were the most common method of suicide in Australia before 1996, today hanging is the most common method at over 50%.

Um... okay? You cant just throw out random statistics and expect that to be a stand-alone argument...

50% of what total? And the total of suicides is what's relevant, not the percentage of how they are killing themselves.

Taking guns away was supposed to give them more time to reconsider,it takes a lot more effort to hang yourself yet this does not stop people from doing it.

Please cite where anyone, anywhere, ever said taking away guns would stop all suicide. I'll wait.

Suicide is a complex issue,we started spending heaps on mental health in the 1990's to reduce our suicide rates...

And I completely agree that is a brilliant step to take, and one that most gun regulation advocates and I would argue needs to be done.

Japan has a high suicide rate and very few guns,they send the families cleanup bills when people jump in front of trains.

You just got done saying it's a multi-faceted issue, then imply that guns are not at all a factor.

Please, if you are going to have this argument, at least learn some basics of how to structure an argument.

[baronvonrort]

Um... okay? You cant just throw out random statistics and expect that to be a stand-alone argument...

50% of what total? And the total of suicides is what's relevant, not the percentage of how they are killing themselves.
Hanging accounts for around 56.2% of all suicides, in 2010 we had 2,478 suicides,before our gun laws we had around 2200-2300 suicides a year.
www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/94BBA3060FC0657BCA2579C6001B676E
www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia- has suicide totals.


Please cite where anyone, anywhere, ever said taking away guns would stop all suicide. I'll wait.
Lots of hoplophobes claim our gun laws reduced suicides saving hundreds of lives,there is no reduction in dead bodies to justify their absurd claims

And I completely agree that is a brilliant step to take, and one that most gun regulation advocates and I would argue needs to be done.

You just got done saying it's a multi-faceted issue, then imply that guns are not at all a factor.
There are studies that show substitution of method,peer reviewd, try reading Dr Samara McPhedran

Please, if you are going to have this argument, at least learn some basics of how to structure an argument.
Why should I bother with a pissant apologist like you?