Author Topic: Rate the latest movie you've seen.  (Read 538764 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6180 on: July 23, 2021, 09:16:32 AM »
BUT in the comics he was a psychopath. So you have to leave the genre entirely to make him sympathetic.
I agree.  That was part of the script's departure from DC's usual formula.  But it was only part of the films strength.  The strength of film came entirely from things generally outside of the superhero format.  As you point out, empathy for the Joker presents a problem for the future development of the plot, and it does for me as well.  The whole Batman story is dependent on certain concepts, Joker being a psychopath is one of them.  How does DC deal with Joker from now on, when at some point, Batman will have to become his enemy again?  Of course the problem is not unsolvable.  And solving the unsolvable is one thing Hollywood does all the time.  And it may well bring new interest to the ongoing story just to see how DC deals with this.

However, my guess is that the Joker movie was an anomaly, a stroke of accidental genius that most of us experience only rarely before we slip back into mediocrity.  I tried to predict how Marvel would bring back the Avengers after most of the team had been wiped out.  I correctly predicted time travel, but that Ant Man twist caught be totally off guard.  Hollywood finds a way.  So do the comics.

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6181 on: July 23, 2021, 09:42:50 AM »
BUT in the comics he was a psychopath. So you have to leave the genre entirely to make him sympathetic.

I'd argue he's psychopathic in the film too. Being sympathetic doesn't mean he's justified. He still does bad things, and he delights in it. Killing brings him happiness, and he tells the whole world so on live TV. He's also severely lacking in social skills. The way he waits too long to do that "shoot me" joke with that neighbor he likes is uncomfortable to watch.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6182 on: July 23, 2021, 10:01:26 AM »
But he wasn't a histrionic type of psycho. "Let's blow up Gotham just to piss off Batman!" wasn't this Joker's style.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6183 on: July 23, 2021, 10:25:37 AM »
But he wasn't a histrionic type of psycho. "Let's blow up Gotham just to piss off Batman!" wasn't this Joker's style.
Yes, he was a different Joker, but I suppose you could make the case that every Joker since the 1970s was a little different than the previous one.  This last one was just farther away from the mold than anything I remember.  During the last movie he morphed from a loser losing into a loser that wanted to level the playing field.  Granted there were some murders that were unexplainable, like killing the social worker at the end.  Although, she could also be seen as just part of the system that Joker was fighting.  I didn't see him as killing for fun, but more like retaliating.  Was he a criminal? Absolutely.  But I'm not sure he was a psychopath, whether that makes much difference, I don't know.  But if villains need to be scary, DC created a good one even if you might feel some sympathy for him.

Offline Hydra009

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6184 on: July 23, 2021, 10:44:10 AM »
I doubt that anyone would give Joker as high a score as I did, but I consider it the best movie of all genres in 2019, dwarfing whatever might be number 2.
I would.

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6185 on: July 23, 2021, 03:01:21 PM »
I didn't see him as killing for fun, but more like retaliating.

He was definitely getting back at some people who have wronged him, but when he was on TV and admitted to killing the guys on the subway, he was asked if he thought it was funny. His response was, "I do, and I'm tired of pretending it's not."
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline SGOS

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6186 on: July 23, 2021, 10:10:59 PM »
He was definitely getting back at some people who have wronged him, but when he was on TV and admitted to killing the guys on the subway, he was asked if he thought it was funny. His response was, "I do, and I'm tired of pretending it's not."
I don't know, and I've puzzled over that unexpected scene on more than one occasion.  Up until that time, he struggled with the concept of "fun", uncontrollably laughing at inappropriate times, and was totally incapable of humor in his stand up comedy.  I thought that was an important transition in his development from loser to villain.  Prior to that he was preoccupied with being a good person, the perfect son, and self pitying victim.  At that moment, he clearly redefined himself when his idol verbally attacked him after spending two nights publicly humiliating him on the show.  Maybe that was the moment he embraced his own psychopathology.  On the other hand, it also seemed like he had been totally out of touch with reality, and I always thought psychopaths were gifted readers of reality.  Joker lived in a fantasy world.  I'm thinking he was a paranoid schizophrenic, which I was told by a psych professor was the worst diagnosis a patient could have, which makes him even more scary.   
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 10:12:45 PM by SGOS »

Offline Hydra009

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6187 on: July 23, 2021, 10:53:22 PM »
It's probably a mistake to try to diagnose him.  We'll never get anything concrete, and his symptoms vary wildly.  But in this movie, he loves black humor (Ma'am, your son's dead!  *laughter*) and definitely seems to have a vindictive, sadist streak.

Though, now that you mention it, textbook sociopathy is often defined by these three key characteristics:

Boldness. Low fear including stress-tolerance, toleration of unfamiliarity and danger, and high self-confidence and social assertiveness.
Disinhibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints.
Meanness. Lacking empathy and close attachments with others, disdain of close attachments, use of cruelty to gain empowerment, exploitative tendencies, defiance of authority, and destructive excitement seeking.

Sound familiar?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 10:51:13 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline SGOS

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6188 on: July 24, 2021, 07:10:56 AM »
It's probably a mistake to try to diagnose him.
Crazy people are often a hodgepodge of symptoms that reflect an array behaviors.  I don't know how psychiatrists nail a thing down to one disorder, but they do and often announce it with a bit of undeserved flair I think.  Medical science is easier, where a pathologist can usually point to a specific broken part and fix it or remove it, and the patient goes on living a normal life.

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6189 on: July 24, 2021, 08:11:14 AM »
I used to volunteer for night duty at a half-way house for veterans being considered for full release from custody. I would be available to talk with them all through the night. This ranged from one-on-one to full blown bull sessions. I made my notes before leaving the next morning. After hours of talking with one dude my notes ran to just one line. "This guy should never, ever, walk the streets again." I was a combat veteran and the gent made me very nervous without doing anything overt. He was just creepy.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6190 on: July 24, 2021, 09:47:21 AM »
Sometimes "creepy" as a diagnosis says more than a more professional diagnosis from the social workers desktop reference manual.  There was a guy I taught with that was discovered to be inappropriately touching 7th grade girls in his classroom.  He was fired, but protested, and after several public town meetings attended by hundreds of parents, he agreed with the school board to be tested by a psychologist or psychiatrist to be allowed to come back the next year.  He didn't show up the next year, but no one was given any explanation of why.  A few years later I and the superintendent of schools were both retired and got to talking about the incident, and he confided to me that the test results came back with the appropriate labels used in a professional diagnosis, but the most damaging part of the report simply said, "This person should never be allowed to be alone with young children."

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6191 on: July 24, 2021, 10:19:06 AM »
"Sometimes", aka "rarely".
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Shiranu

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6192 on: July 27, 2021, 07:54:43 AM »
Had no idea a new Suicide Squad movie was coming out... and honestly, I'm kinda excited about it since DC seems to maybe be getting a little more on track AND it's directed by Gunn. I'm keeping my expectations low, but I'm letting myself have a sliver of hope.

Also, just started the Harley series that I never knew existed (or that DC had their own streaming service...) and holy shit it's good lol.
“The great appear great to us only because we are on our knees. LET US ARISE!” - "The Rebel", Texas' Premier Socialist Newspaper, 1892

Offline aitm

Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6193 on: July 27, 2021, 04:33:11 PM »
I'm feeling a bit whimsical today. Think I'll rewatch Airplane for some silly giggles.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Online Mr.Obvious

  • Atheist Mantis
  • Jacuzzi Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4138
  • Total likes: 2761
  • The rules are made up, and the points don't matter
Re: Rate the latest movie you've seen.
« Reply #6194 on: July 27, 2021, 04:44:07 PM »
The gf wanted to watch 'risen', I think because it was with the Draco malfoy guy.
As far as movies go, it's not half bad. Believable acting, good scenery, likeable main character, good shots and costumes. I may not be a fan of the whole Jesus myth, but I can say this is a good movie.
Hell of a lot better than the utter bile that was the passion of the christ. This film at least seems to care about the message that Christians claim to care about: loving thine neighbor.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.