I'm a new philosopher in the community.

Started by singulorum, June 26, 2015, 11:23:19 PM

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popsthebuilder

Jesus was prophesied. He was a perfect example of what man has the potential to be. If you read all ancient texts and read interpret them with patience and metaphorically for the most part they all have the same lessons and guidelines in order to live an enlightened life on earth and the afterlife. They all state that Jesus Christ was a messenger of god as were other prophets. Christianity was manipulated by man from the start but there are some Christians that have the right idea. All re religions focus on some fake difference in there god but in reality they all read very similar if you can comb through the intentionally misleading parts put there by man. As far as I can tell. Modern pagans feel as if there religion started in the 60s. There are generally many gods, magic, satanists in current pagan practices.

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Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 27, 2015, 11:53:38 PM
Jesus was prophesied. He was a perfect example of what man has the potential to be. If you read all ancient texts and read interpret them with patience and metaphorically for the most part they all have the same lessons and guidelines in order to live an enlightened life on earth and the afterlife. They all state that Jesus Christ was a messenger of god as were other prophets. Christianity was manipulated by man from the start but there are some Christians that have the right idea. All re religions focus on some fake difference in there god but in reality they all read very similar if you can comb through the intentionally misleading parts put there by man. As far as I can tell. Modern pagans feel as if there religion started in the 60s. There are generally many gods, magic, satanists in current pagan practices.

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Jesus was not prophesied.  He was backdated.  And since Jesus was a myth and not a man, he could not have been prophesied.  Daniel--one of the main sources of that prophesy is clearly been tampered with many times.  We don't even know who wrote it or even exactly when.  You seem to think that there is a kernel of truth in all those religions.  There is none--it is all man made--all of it and all of them.  God isn't real, so how can one have a real religion based on an unreal god????  And most of the satanists and the most magic performers I'm aware of are Christian, not pagan.  And what is that 'right idea' that some Christians have????
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

popsthebuilder

The right idea is one of unity and morality in the face of adversity. The Lord is there. I have witnessed his grace and mercy personally. I was atheist for over 20 years and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course. Try reading a little of the Old Testament and Quran, and the book of Enoch. Yes they are all flawed in part by mans sin and for his own gain. But the lessons are firm and true. What caused you to be atheist? Do you remember?

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Shiranu

QuoteWhat caused you to be atheist? Do you remember?

I didn't believe in god, that was the main thing.

The baby BBQ was just icing on the cake.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hydra009

Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 12:29:22 AMThe right idea is one of unity and morality in the face of adversity. The Lord is there. I have witnessed his grace and mercy personally. I was atheist for over 20 years and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course. Try reading a little of the Old Testament and Quran, and the book of Enoch. Yes they are all flawed in part by mans sin and for his own gain. But the lessons are firm and true.

Baruch

Singulorum - the history of history ... is historiography.  The history of Christianity officially begins with Eusebius who is a contemporary of Emperor Constantine circa 325 CE.  This is basically 300 years after Paul.  History as written, is always propaganda by the winning side.  It has to be cross-examined ;-)  The writings of contemporary witnesses are the most reliable, but always biased.  One also has to distinguish between official records and popular fiction.  Most records, both Jewish and Gentile, for Palestine ... were destroyed in 70 CE, during the first Jewish-Roman war.  It doesn't take a conspiracy on the part of Jews or Romans to suppress the "Jesus" literature or groups that embodied that message ... it was illegal to operate an unauthorized men's club, and like most crimes of that era, the punishment was death, even for women.

Given that, if we imagine that America was destroyed, and 300 years later someone dug up "Tom Sawyer" ... would it be treated as historical evidence that Tom Sayer existed?  No ... but it would be proof that Mark Twain existed ... except that Mark Twain didn't exist, Samuel Clemens did.  That is what we are faced with in the textual evidence.  I have studied this early evidence myself ... specifically the "red letter" words of Jesus.  The gospels are novellas ... short religious fictions to support one or more early Christian communities ... that were more or less Pauline ... because all the other messianic Jews from 70 - 135 CE, were destroyed by the Romans in three massive Roman-Jewish wars (see Josephus for the first one).  The Gentiles wrote similar religious and secular literature, it was pulp fiction.  As Eusebius probably honestly relates ... all Jews were prohibited from the ruins of Jerusalem and a radius many miles around ... but one group, descended from the "James the Just" group, opted to apostasy from Judaism, so that they could retain access after 135 CE.  Jews continued in the neighborhood for several more centuries, particularly in Galilee ... where rabbinic Judaism was first birthed.  Historical Romans didn't write much about messianic Jews ... other than that they killed them for good reason.  Historical Jews, the surviving ones, were anti-messianic Jews ... for understandable reasons.  They did write about these troublemakers, but never about Jesus, but about the other failed pretenders to the miracle of Hannukah oil.

Pretty much anything that had been Jewish-Gentile Christianity, was leveled and rewritten circa 135 - 200 CE.  There is evidence of a non-textual kind, prior to Constantine ... but this is evidence of Jewish-Christian communities of uncertain affiliation in Jerusalem ... prior to Constantine, but how prior, we don't know.  The other non-textual evidence is there too, but it is pretty thin before Christianity was chosen, and re-imagined politically, as a State religion.  Initially this new religion was Greek Orthodox, centered on Thessalonica and Constantinople, but the people in the West didn't speak Greek much, so a Latin derivative church had to be invented, centered on Rome and Carthage.

Our first complete NT books come from 200 CE.  Josephus was considered a traitor by the rabbinic Jews, so his books weren't copied by copyists of Jewish persuasion ... but were copied by Gentile historians and eventually under Emperor Constantine, by Gentile Christians.  Gentile Christianity as we know it got its start under Paul, whose writings were edited (as any ancient writing was) and a few other pre-Constantine writings such as The Didache ... which describes an early congregational practice circa Paul.  Diaspora synagogues were mixed communities of kosher Jews and god-fearers.  Many god-fearers were Gentiles who had been freed by their Jewish masters.  You can't go without a boss ... when you were manumitted from slavery ... your ownership was passed from your master to a new paterfamilias.  In some cases this was manumission as a Roman citizen (who was a slave of the Emperor).  Paul's ancestry in Tarsus was likely that kind ... as he admits, his citizenship wasn't purchased ... which means that one could do that ... in the early Roman Empire, most people were not citizens, they were subjects.  The way Paul talks of slavery on several levels ... I don't think that his ancestor had been a free Jew, who purchased (bribed really) a Roman citizenship off of the local governor.  It was more likely a manumission.  This is why Paul targeted manumitted slaves primarily.  This is why Paul speaks with a "slave mentality" and this is very useful to Roman Christianity later on.  But for the first 100 years, Christianoi (Greek for messianic-maniacs) ... just as Quakers/Shakers are named by their enemies much later ... were Jews of various kinds.  There are multiple gospels because there are multiple kinds of "Jesus communities" ... and Paul was one of those "apostles" who went around forming them, initially out of Jewish and god-fearers in existing synagogues ... where anyone who accepted Paul's message, was expelled from the synagogue by both kosher Jews and other messianic Jews.  It was the Roman authorities you had to be afraid of, because if you weren't associated with a legal synagogue, and still congregated, you were a felon.  But on this expulsion, you aren't beaten ... as Paul wasn't ... but upon re-admittence ... as Paul was.  Paul literally underwent multiple excommunications, to get more followers, he got readmitted (probably under false pretenses .. this is why there was a Jewish posse following him everywhere to warn the next synagogue down the road) multiple times ... and on re-admittance was flogged and trod upon at the entrance to the synagogue.  Quite the maniac.  Synagogues were still practicing this 1500 years later, in the time of Baruch Spinoza (who didn't seek re-admittence and so wasn't flogged or trod upon). 

Anyway, after 135 CE, the various Christian communities (hence the diatribes concerning heresy by the other Christian groups different from the writer in question) were pretty much Gentile, because they had to be ... and Jewish Christianity pretty much died out, under Constantinian Christianity (State Christianity aka Greek Orthodox Church) by 400 CE.  Constantine's Christianity wasn't anti-Semitic by sentiment but by legal proscription.  Though Jewish Christianity has enjoyed a revival in the last 50 years (as did messianic secular Judaism in Palestine/Israel over the last 100 years).  Early rabbinic Judaism continued also ... but was pretty much suppressed in the Roman Empire by 400 CE also ... that is why there is the break in the Talmud ... from the Jerusalem Talmud to the Babylonian Talmud.  Under Emperor Julian the Apostate, the Temple was going to be rebuilt (as some messianic Jews are planning even now) .. but the early death of this emperor prevented this.  The back-reaction by the Gentile Christians was considerable (destruction of synagogues).

It is a unique Jewish practice, since the destruction of 70 CE ... to preserve perfect copies of Torah ... which is the primary part of the OT or Tanakh.  This is expensive even today ... it is done by hand, and if the scribe makes a single error, the whole scroll gets thrown out.  This is why a kosher Torah scroll costs $40,000 to make.  The OT as a book, was a much later invention circa 950 CE ... by a dissident Jewish group called the Karaiites.  The Aleppo Codex is (except for OT scrolls from the Dead Sea) the oldest partial OT book.  The slightly later Leningrad Codex is the oldest complete Tanakh in existence today ... but hardly the oldest Bible.  The Bible was originally ordered composed by Emperor Constantine.  This was done for 25 copies on vellum ... and each one took an emperor's ransom to make.  The Christian scribes had to kill 3000 sheep to make one copy ... you couldn't just jog on down to Kinko's ;-)  One of these Bibles, or possibly a slightly later issue, has been saved as the Codex Siniaticus ... it is also incomplete, as the Aleppo Codex is.  The story as to how the NT came about is fascinating but a distraction ... suffice it to say, prior to Constantine, we know that it existed as separate codexes (books) not scrolls.  These codexes were on papyrus ... and were actually recycled papyrus ... and the place that the recycled papyrus was produced, and bound into blank journals for business use (as journals are used for bookkeeping today) was in a Lebanese coastal town called ... da.da.da ... Byblos.  BTW - the Codex Siniaticus has plenty of scribal error in it, with emendations to the side of the error.  Gentiles were not going to throw away even a single sheet of vellum for a mere error.  Also Jews don't casually destroy sacred writings ... they are carefully stored or buried.  When the Codex Siniaticus was found, it was literally being used as tinder to light the kitchen stove at the Mt Sinai Monastery.  And rabbinic Jews would agree ... to consign it to the flames.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Mike CL ... it always comes down to personal and group psychology of our own and contemporaries.  So we might ask, not if Jesus existed, or if Jesus was supernatural ... but why would various communities of Jews and Gentiles prior to Constantine, believe such a story or stories?  And then we might ask ourselves, why do you care to try to reconstruct the psychology of people who lived 2000 years ago, that we can't cross-examine ;-)  I agree that there are no miracles, except the ordinary kind, that secular folks just call natural.  At one point, Jesus refuses to do any showy miracles ... just faith healings ... which are real placebo events.  Other preternatural events ... are just from the imagination of the Gospel writers ... and have only symbolic value as these are hagiographies, not histories ... just like all the "saint's lives" that came later.

What Paul emphasizes is Christ crucified and risen ... not the ministry or words of Jesus.  This is very strange for a near contemporary ... unless you conclude with Paul's enemies, that he as a prevaricating nut case.  Now I am not against maniacs, particularly charismatic ones ... but I am not following them anywhere ;-)  I have a personal friend who is one ... and he even participated in a preternatural event in Jerusalem (something strange about that location) which I didn't witness myself.  Japanese tourists experience psychotic geographical effects, in Paris France.  But they haven't started a religion over that yet ;-)  I have experienced preternatural events myself of a minor kind, and know others, even my own parents, who have experienced the more spectacular kind.  But of course, as one time events, they can never be scientifically investigated.  But what remains, besides official theology ... is what Paul actually meant by Christ crucified and risen ... given his vision on the road to Damascus ... is clearly at variance with the Gospels.  He existed, and he was communicating something to his living audience ... but it may be beyond our grasp forever, just like so much other history.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Popsthebuilder - not just the words of ancient people, but their acts.  Their acts were horrendous ... ancient messianic Jews were mostly not pacifists ... they were very much like ISIS is today.  The three wars of Jews against Romans (not counting an earlier one that led to Judea et al becoming a protectorate 100 years before Paul) were horrible events ... and not just Romans committed atrocity after atrocity.  The only Jews of any kind to survive, were the pacifists, not the militants.  Both the Hellenized Jews and the Semitic Jews were wiped out in the Near East.  Only small synagogues existed outside that area, from Asia all the way thru Europe and Africa.  It has taken 2000 years for Judaism to recover.  Jewish folk who played the prophet or miracle worker ... were troublemakers, enemies of both the Jews and the Romans ... partly because in early times, their claims were believed to be legitimate miracles.  This happened in modern times with Palestine/Israel ... with secular Jewish prophets.  And there have been miracles ... such as the recreation of Hebrew as a spoken language (though not the language of the Bible).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

popsthebuilder

Please do not attempt to say that the underlying messages of some ancient text do not have truth. Like I said to some it must be as if you are stumbling through the dark woods of a fairytale when you attempt to get the real meaning of those texts. I am not a scholar, historian, or Christian. I was a hard core atheist for a long time. I know that there is a Lord and an unspeakable based on my experiences in life and interactions with both.
Faith is the hardest part, but also when the dots will line up.

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Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 12:29:22 AM
The right idea is one of unity and morality in the face of adversity. The Lord is there. I have witnessed his grace and mercy personally. I was atheist for over 20 years and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course. Try reading a little of the Old Testament and Quran, and the book of Enoch. Yes they are all flawed in part by mans sin and for his own gain. But the lessons are firm and true. What caused you to be atheist? Do you remember?

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Sure, pops, I do remember what lead me to my realization that there is no god(s).  It was because I read the bible from cover to cover, studied the history of the canonization of the bible, and applied some reasoning and thinking on my own.  (I'd suggest that maybe you apply a little 'reasoning' while you  contemplate god) Dare I ask?  What is man's sin?  What lessons are you referring to?  BTW, read the little statement attached to my avatar.  Can you answer that question?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

popsthebuilder ... I am not trying to dissuade you from faith or religious experience.  I hang my hat on religious experience myself, though not on faith.  This is why I don't rely on ancient texts ... or any text or artifact or natural event ... but those things mediate how I interpret those religious experiences.  If you have a close relationship with what transcends modern-delimited perception (the modern Matrix) then good for you.  I also quite enjoy trying to get into the mental and emotional experiences of both ancient and modern writers.

Mike Cl ... much of the argumentation one gets from religious folks ... is based on word games rather than direct experience.  I think that popsthebuilder is saying that ... he has direct religious experience, that is relatively unmediated by any rhetorical faith position.  That is my position too, though my particular religious experiences may or may not match his ... and the way that I perceive them (interpret them) may also be different.  A mystic of Muslim leaning will interpret the same religious experience differently than say a Hindu mystic.

Many humans have human experiences ... naturally so.  Whether these are to be interpreted according to Pythagoras/Plato or some other ancient or modern authors is a matter of personality of the person having the experiences.  Whether we are talking ordinary day time experiences, or extraordinary consciousness states (including dreams or paranormal phenomena).  The very question as to the objectivity of any human experience ... is subject to the same ambiguity ... even what seems rational or factual.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

#41
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 12:29:22 AM
and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course.

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:rotflmao:


oh wonderful, another ex-drunk/dope head gone through the vagina of jesus and re-born! Hal a fuckin luleah! Yeah, we are all aware you're a fuck up unable to exist in the real world without something or someone holding your hand cause you don't have the f-in ability to control yourself.. yea, I am impressed at your reasoning that god exists when you can't push your own ass away from the bar.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

popsthebuilder

We are all evil. There is evedence of this in your tone. I am not sorry that the Lord has blessed me.
Assuming that the somewhat successful business owner that has a loving imidiate family was a fuck up. In your assuming eyes you judge based on societies negative influence effectively giving false judgement. I enjoy solitude to some extent and always have. It allows for somewhat unbiased conclusions. By the way, I was indeed mended by the Lord. He opened my eyes and heart and changed my entire way of being. It was a trying journey indeed but I am no doubt better for it. Most societal norms can be viewed as simply laziness where they conflict with nature and the metaphorical teachings of the old texts. My life's experiences have thought me and the Lord indeed guides me. As I understand it is not only my perpose but the propose.

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AllPurposeAtheist

Pops, I've been a self inflicted fuckup for many many years. I was a drunk and heroin addict and came through more shit than you can poke a dull stick at. Did GAWD save me from my own fuckups? No. I decided that I just didn't want to go to prison and rot there. I've known plenty of people who have lived really tough lives, much tougher than my own and many come through relatively unscathed and DON'T attribute their success nor failure to the big spooky in the sky. 
Give yourself some fucking credit for not having succumbed to the shit you put yourself through and stop with the telling us how magic from the sky is the reason you're not dead..
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Baruch

I have known all kinds.  Those who AA has helped.  Those whose time in prison helped.  Those who quit cold turkey.  Whatever works, is good by me.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.