Author Topic: "I won't believe in God because of evil"  (Read 5762 times)

"I won't believe in God because of evil"
« on: March 10, 2013, 10:02:04 AM »
Before anyone bring up a discussion about proof GOD exists, please understand that is not key to my argument. I infer that you accept that IF a God exists, then why is there x y or z. Many of you i am sure have compelling arguments, but this is not the thread to post them in.


This thread has been inspired by some of the posts i have read on the 'why do you not follow or believe in God'. Whilst there are notably good reasons(which can be refuted), a lot of people attest that they do not accept a God who could bring death, suffering, allow the human free will to cause so much carnage. This argument, or the argument of evil, does not hold to atheistic logic. It plays on emotion, rather than objective deduction. I also had this dilemma. There was so much injustice in this world, but then i thought, well what is 'injustice' , what is 'right' or wrong? ' What gives me the ground to attest such objective concepts even exist? To an atheist, morality is relative.


To give you a practical example, take the below cell. You can have two positive electrode potentials, but the least positive one will be the negative terminal, i.e the one donating the electrons overall.





So why can't we find anything concrete like this in morality?

Why is this relevant? Evil and good are all relative.

As an atheist, you are obliged to accept there is no objective morality. Any kind of moral act has some sort of evolutionary benefit to promote survival. Richard Dawkins agree's with me on this, in addition of a plethora of atheists.

Let me break it down further:

As an atheist you believe humans are complex organisms made out of trillions of cells, each cell made out of many more atoms ect. You arose through a process of random mutation and natural selection. There is no good or evil: there are only acts which promote survival, and acts against survival. This is the 'scale' by which you can compare good and evil.

Thus, there is nothing objectively wrong with rape. However, rape destabilizes society. To an atheist, a stable society grants benefits in terms of survival, so it is in ones interest to not rape. There is nothing objectively disgusting about it, but it is 'immoral' because of it's consequence ultimately on survival.

Furthermore, the scale by which you measure morality is survival. If a deity chooses to give eternal life for the finite one we live here, this nullifies the ground by which anyone can say ' x is good' or 'x is bad'. Thus, the argument for evil disproving God really is superfluous. If your morality is coming from acts which benefit your survival, eternal life for any suffering in a finite one, even according to atheistic morality is a positive 'moral' act because you end up surviving -forever.


This Quote sums it up rather neatly:

The thesis: "conscience, the seat of our moral sense, evolved as a survival mechanism. When...we feel guilt because we have harmed a sibling, it is because we have thereby imperiled the proliferation of our genes. When we feel guilt because we have harmed someone outside the family circle, it is because we have potentially damaged our own (survival enhancing) status."

The Moral Animal--Why We Are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology , by Robert Wright, published by Pantheon Press

http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress. ... ubjective/
"Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth is clear from error" - Quran
Apostasy Islam]? Michael H. Hart]

[size=150]"The cure for ignorance is to question" -Muhammed(pbuh)[/size]

Offline the_antithesis

(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 10:39:08 AM »
This again? You post and repost the least compelling topics ever.

Offline leo

Re: "I won't believe in God because of evil"
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 10:47:58 AM »
I will use this thread to raise my post count .
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

Re: "I won't believe in God because of evil"
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 11:27:19 AM »
Quote from: "leo"
I will use this thread to raise my post count .

 :rollin: Leo
 :rollin: Antith
 :rollin: MR
I am currently experiencing life at several WTFs per hour.

(No subject)
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2013, 12:57:14 PM »
Fuck non objective morals. I'm done with that shit. I'm going to turn to the book of a 7th century pedophile to tell me what's moral and what's not.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 03:57:23 AM by Bibliofagus »
Quote from: \"the_antithesis\"
Faith says, "I believe this and I don\'t care what you say, I cannot possibly be wrong." Faith is an act of pride.

Quote from: \"AllPurposeAtheist\"
The moral high ground was dug up and made into a walmart apparently today.

Tornadoes caused: 2, maybe 3.

Online Hydra009

Re: "I won't believe in God because of evil"
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 02:22:15 PM »
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
Furthermore, the scale by which you measure morality is survival. If a deity chooses to give eternal life for the finite one we live here, this nullifies the ground by which anyone can say ' x is good' or 'x is bad'.
That's a pretty big IF.  I assume you can support this as more than just mere conjecture?   :popcorn:

Re: "I won't believe in God because of evil"
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 02:22:31 PM »
I'm bored, and saw this post.  Figured I will take out my boredom upon you by breaking this down.

Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
This thread has been inspired by some of the posts i have read on the 'why do you not follow or believe in God'. Whilst there are notably good reasons(which can be refuted), a lot of people attest that they do not accept a God who could bring death, suffering, allow the human free will to cause so much carnage. This argument, or the argument of evil, does not hold to atheistic logic. It plays on emotion, rather than objective deduction. I also had this dilemma.

I think you are confusing 'belief' with 'acceptance' here.  If we take what the Bible (as an example) says literally, then in fact the Christian God is a very evil being.  Case in point being the mass genocide of the human race from Noah's Flood, amongst many other crimes against humanity.  Now I am not an atheist because I think God is evil, I have various other logical and empirical reasons for not believing in a god.  However, if it was determined that God was in fact real via empirical evidence, I would be forced to realize that he exists.  But that does not mean that I have to accept him, essentially an act of defiance against said god.  This is done in the same manner that most people would reject Stalin if he became the leader of their nation.  You can prove that Stalin exists, but you can personally reject his leadership because of the atrocities he has committed.

Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
Why is this relevant? Evil and good are all relative.

As an atheist, you are obliged to accept there is no objective morality. Any kind of moral act has some sort of evolutionary benefit to promote survival. Richard Dawkins agree's with me on this, in addition of a plethora of atheists.

First off, let me just point out that as an atheist I am not obliged to blindly accept anything.  Blind acceptance falls under religious purview, evidence is ours.  Now while many atheists agree that morality is relative, that is not a core tenet of atheistic philosophy because there simply is no atheistic philosophy.

Now you have also bent Dawkins' words here.  Dawkins has spoken about how our societal laws were created to promote survival, yes.  But he has said numerous times that while these laws were created out of a base need for survival, we should not use a Darwinian model for our society because such a model would be cruel.

Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
Let me break it down further:

As an atheist you believe humans are complex organisms made out of trillions of cells, each cell made out of many more atoms ect. You arose through a process of random mutation and natural selection. There is no good or evil: there are only acts which promote survival, and acts against survival. This is the 'scale' by which you can compare good and evil.

Thus, there is nothing objectively wrong with rape. However, rape destabilizes society. To an atheist, a stable society grants benefits in terms of survival, so it is in ones interest to not rape. There is nothing objectively disgusting about it, but it is 'immoral' because of it's consequence ultimately on survival.

Furthermore, the scale by which you measure morality is survival. If a deity chooses to give eternal life for the finite one we live here, this nullifies the ground by which anyone can say ' x is good' or 'x is bad'. Thus, the argument for evil disproving God really is superfluous. If your morality is coming from acts which benefit your survival, eternal life for any suffering in a finite one, even according to atheistic morality is a positive 'moral' act because you end up surviving -forever.

You have based this entire chunk on the assumption that atheist base their judgements of morality on an entirely Darwinian model of society, which is just plainly false.  For example, some may see rape as immoral because it destabilizes society as a whole, but that does not mean that is the only reason the rape is immoral.  I could make an argument that it is immoral because it breaks the autonomy of the victim.

Your mistake is thinking that all atheists can be combined under a core philosophy or ideology, which is patently false.  And further you have mistaken the difference between backing Darwinian evolution as a reason for why we are here, and applying it is a moral philosophy.


Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
This Quote sums it up rather neatly:

The thesis: "conscience, the seat of our moral sense, evolved as a survival mechanism. When...we feel guilt because we have harmed a sibling, it is because we have thereby imperiled the proliferation of our genes. When we feel guilt because we have harmed someone outside the family circle, it is because we have potentially damaged our own (survival enhancing) status."

The Moral Animal--Why We Are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology , by Robert Wright, published by Pantheon Press

http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress. ... ubjective/

Again, completely misunderstanding the difference between understanding the evolution of our brains, and how to further apply a sense of moral philosophy.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

(No subject)
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 03:37:16 PM »
Quote
This thread has been inspired by some of the posts i have read on the 'why do you not follow or believe in God'. Whilst there are notably good reasons(which can be refuted), a lot of people attest that they do not accept a God who could bring death, suffering, allow the human free will to cause so much carnage. This argument, or the argument of evil, does not hold to atheistic logic. It plays on emotion, rather than objective deduction.
Who cares? I reject a belief in God based on the complete and utter lack of evidence for him. THE END. The argument from evil is only this big fucking deal to theists, who always eventually bring it up and try to argue against it as if it's some sort of principle reason why atheists are atheists.

That said, I can play the "what if" game as well as anyone else, and can entertain the notion of a God truly existing and contemplate the consequences thereof. The Problem of Evil is an entertaining mental exercise and theists are soooo hot to try to counter it. Our analysis show that any sufficiently godlike being would be evil, and why would you condone or venerate an evil god?

And yes, it should fill you with disgust if such a being were to exist. If such a God were to really exist, a worm would be above worshiping it.

But again, that's not the real reason we don't believe in God.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Re:
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2013, 03:54:56 PM »
Quote from: "Hakurei Reimu"
Quote
This thread has been inspired by some of the posts i have read on the 'why do you not follow or believe in God'. Whilst there are notably good reasons(which can be refuted), a lot of people attest that they do not accept a God who could bring death, suffering, allow the human free will to cause so much carnage. This argument, or the argument of evil, does not hold to atheistic logic. It plays on emotion, rather than objective deduction.
Who cares? I reject a belief in God based on the complete and utter lack of evidence for him. THE END. The argument from evil is only this big fucking deal to theists, who always eventually bring it up and try to argue against it as if it's some sort of principle reason why atheists are atheists.

That said, I can play the "what if" game as well as anyone else, and can entertain the notion of a God truly existing and contemplate the consequences thereof. The Problem of Evil is an entertaining mental exercise and theists are soooo hot to try to counter it. Our analysis show that any sufficiently godlike being would be evil, and why would you condone or venerate an evil god?

And yes, it should fill you with disgust if such a being were to exist. If such a God were to really exist, a worm would be above worshiping it.

But again, that's not the real reason we don't believe in God.

You will be surprised how many people emotively use this reason. The problem of 'evil' is quoted so many times, and i just feel people need to realize they just aren't standing on any ground, because there is no ground.
"Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth is clear from error" - Quran
Apostasy Islam]? Michael H. Hart]

[size=150]"The cure for ignorance is to question" -Muhammed(pbuh)[/size]

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Re:
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 04:18:29 PM »
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
You will be surprised how many people emotively use this reason. The problem of 'evil' is quoted so many times, and i just feel people need to realize they just aren't standing on any ground, because there is no ground.
Really? You've done extensive interviews with these people and figured out that THIS is the reason why they don't believe in God? Show me your transcripts.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Offline leo

Re: "I won't believe in God because of evil"
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 04:33:22 PM »
:popcorn:  :popcorn:  :popcorn:
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

Online Hydra009

Re: Re:
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 04:33:41 PM »
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
You will be surprised how many people emotively use this reason. The problem of 'evil' is quoted so many times, and i just feel people need to realize they just aren't standing on any ground, because there is no ground.
I'm surprised only in how you stubbornly you cling to it as if it were atheists' primary argument against the existence of a god, despite atheists themselves telling you that it isn't.  Rather than reassessing your argument, you plow ahead as if there wasn't anything wrong with it and embarrass yourself accordingly.

Offline leo

Re: "I won't believe in God because of evil"
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 04:45:55 PM »
:popcorn:  :popcorn:  :popcorn:  :popcorn:
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

Re: Re:
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 05:00:58 PM »
Quote from: "Hakurei Reimu"
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
You will be surprised how many people emotively use this reason. The problem of 'evil' is quoted so many times, and i just feel people need to realize they just aren't standing on any ground, because there is no ground.
Really? You've done extensive interviews with these people and figured out that THIS is the reason why they don't believe in God? Show me your transcripts.

I never asserted this was the primary reason for all atheists. I don't even think this discussion belongs in this topic. My only claim is, i do know many people who do not believe God exists and one of the deciding factors is the 'problem' of evil.

I understand other people have a wide variety of other reasons, but the problem of evil is a big one.
"Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth is clear from error" - Quran
Apostasy Islam]? Michael H. Hart]

[size=150]"The cure for ignorance is to question" -Muhammed(pbuh)[/size]

Re: Re:
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 05:02:34 PM »
Quote from: "Hydra009"
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"
You will be surprised how many people emotively use this reason. The problem of 'evil' is quoted so many times, and i just feel people need to realize they just aren't standing on any ground, because there is no ground.
I'm surprised only in how you stubbornly you cling to it as if it were atheists' primary argument against the existence of a god, despite atheists themselves telling you that it isn't.  Rather than reassessing your argument, you plow ahead as if there wasn't anything wrong with it and embarrass yourself accordingly.

1. I never claimed this was the prime reason or the only reason why atheists do not believe in God.

2. I only asserted for a good number , this is one of the main reasons.  I have seen it deployed numerously.

3. Perhaps attack my argument, so i can then re-assess it, rather than arguing about me arguing? (not in a bad way)
"Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth is clear from error" - Quran
Apostasy Islam]? Michael H. Hart]

[size=150]"The cure for ignorance is to question" -Muhammed(pbuh)[/size]