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Think this will stop new gun buyers?

Started by aitm, June 17, 2015, 12:40:09 PM

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aitm

A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hijiri Byakuren

It's an interesting approach, to say the least. I'm still not completely sure what my final opinion on gun ownership is. We have a couple rabbit-shooters and shotguns for troublesome wildlife, and my mother used to keep a revolver in her car's glove box when a couple assholes tried following her home. (I don't think it leaves the safe these days.) We used to have an M-16 semi-auto, but after that got stolen back at the old house we decided that maybe we shouldn't buy something that a thief could use in a mass shooting.

Frankly, as far as practical self-defense goes, pepper spray or a hand taser is probably a better bet than a gun in most cases. A gun can scare off a guy with a knife maybe, but if someone pulls their own gun on you and pats you down, all you've done is give him another gun. Granted, there are cases like in Texas a month ago where prospective shooters were gunned down before they got off a shot, but 9 times out of 10 you're not gonna be able to return fire.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

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aitm

My Dad who was never a gun advocate because we all hunted back then and had 6 or 7 rifles and shotguns and two pistols was leary of "common idiots" having a gun. But he was also one of those that firmly distrusted the government. When the National Guard killed those 4 kids in Ohio back in shit 68? He said, "thats why we need to keep our guns". I remember that Tienanmen square episode, we were watching that on the news and he said to the TV. "You can squash a dare in Tienanmen square, but not in the land of Yosemite Sam". I always thought that was funny. Too many people distrust the government and the military as well. We will never get rid of guns here. Well, maybe.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Mike Cl

Quote from: aitm on June 17, 2015, 01:33:59 PM
My Dad who was never a gun advocate because we all hunted back then and had 6 or 7 rifles and shotguns and two pistols was leary of "common idiots" having a gun. But he was also one of those that firmly distrusted the government. When the National Guard killed those 4 kids in Ohio back in shit 68? He said, "thats why we need to keep our guns". I remember that Tienanmen square episode, we were watching that on the news and he said to the TV. "You can squash a dare in Tienanmen square, but not in the land of Yosemite Sam". I always thought that was funny. Too many people distrust the government and the military as well. We will never get rid of guns here. Well, maybe.
I agree with you--we never will.  I think that is too bad.  But realistically, guns are here to stay.  But we need to have some sensible regulations dealing with clip size and the types of guns the average guy can have.  And a simple gun, universal tracking system and registry would be better than what we have.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

TomFoolery

I think people have such difficulty debating gun control because they're arguing over different things but don't seem to realize it.

There's a lot of questions in this one debate.

Should people be able to own guns, yes or no?
If yes, should ANYONE be able to buy a gun, or should it be limited by criteria like only adults with non-violent felonies?
What KINDS of guns and accessories should people be able to buy?
Do guns really make things safer?

Those are all separate issues.

If you look at gun control on a spectrum, with people at one end thinking that no one anywhere ever should be able to own so much as a water gun, including police and military for professional use, and people at the other end thinking gun ownership should be compulsory for every man, woman and child regardless of mental capacity, I think it's safe to say everyone falls somewhere in the middle of that. It's hard to figure out where everyone's personal line of decency is after that, because everyone assumes they are the ones who is right and anyone to the left is some liberal hippie and anyone to the right is some war-mongering jihadist.

I don't think guns make people safer. I think they lure people into a false sense of security. I'm former military, and I can honestly say gun skills are highly perishable. If you don't train in a variety of conditions, including drawing, rapidly loading, positively identifying your target and properly aiming on at least a quarterly basis, you're probably fucked.

Lots of people own a handgun for home defense, but how many people have practiced properly clearing their own house? You know, to ensure when you're spraying and praying at the "bad guy" in the dark that you're not shooting all willy nilly in the direction of your sleeping neighbors or children? I also used to work for city services dispatch for the City of Dallas, and I can tell you, I can only remember one case where someone shot an intruder in their home. There were many home shootings, but they were relatives and obviously accidental.

In public, they present an even scarier option. I'm from Texas where everyone I know has a concealed carry. Imagine a scenario where there are 10 people in a McDonald's and half of them are armed. Someone comes in to rob the place and draws a firearm, and then the five concerned citizens with their concealed carry also draw to neutralize this threat. How easy is it to identify the original robber? Shit turns into chaos pretty quickly. Same thing with arming teachers in a classroom, or students in college. Any shooter that comes into a classroom probably already has a weapon drawn and ready to fire, and no one can react to that kind of threat that quickly, even if they were expecting it. Studies have shown that teachers and students who were armed are far more likely to be shot themselves or shoot an innocent bystander than take out the original shooter. You're far safer seeking cover and playing dead than you are playing the hero, and so are the people around you for that matter.

As for guns being in the Constitution and therefore an irrefutable right, well, slavery was in the original Constitution, along with the right to refuse British soldiers the right to squat on your couch. Times change, and we no longer live in a world where Ohio is considered the untamed wilderness and we have a standing military, making militias kind of antiquated. When it comes to the "we need guns to keep ourselves safe from the government argument," horseshit. Our nation's military has access to scarier shit than you could ever imagine, and unless you believe private citizens should be able to own nukes, and tanks, and surface-to-air missiles, than a bunch of rednecks with Winchester rifles aren't going to be an incredible match for the government, even in a guerrilla warfare kind of situation.

And that's all I have to say about that, short of, I'm actually not anti-gun ownership. I'm just pro-facts and logic.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Gawdzilla Sama

I was trained to use firearms by a one-legged Marine I used to call "Gunny Miyagi". He taught me to use and respect guns. 99.99% of gun owners in the US will never get that level of training. And it shows in the statistics.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

hrdlr110

The second amendment CAN be changed. It's an amendment - maybe what folks need is a dictionary!
Q for theists; how can there be freewill and miracles? And, how can prayer exist in an environment as regimented as "gods plan"?

"I'm a polyatheist, there are many gods I don't believe in." - Dan Fouts

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: hrdlr110 on June 17, 2015, 04:32:18 PM
The second amendment CAN be changed. It's an amendment - maybe what folks need is a dictionary!
They will quote anything that favors them. If the Constitution didn't mention guns it would be declared "irrelevant".

But if you want to have some fun, ask the 2nd quoters if they are members of a well-regulated amendment. "regulation" after all, requires regulations, or (horrors!) laws, about gun ownership.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

aitm

Quote from: hrdlr110 on June 17, 2015, 04:32:18 PM
The second amendment CAN be changed. It's an amendment - maybe what folks need is a dictionary!
It "could" but it won't. As long as 1% own 95% and the supreme court says that corps are people, and politicians are nothing more than shills, people actually have a reason to fear the guvment.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Solitary

There will always be guns, just read the comments on the video----fear sells guns, equipment for war, and takes our freedom away from search and seizure without a court order at airports, while make people rich that sell methods of killing that are very easy, too easy.
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Sal1981

I'm not sure what to think, haven't really formed an opinion yet. Although, a step in the right direction, IMO, would be to make guns safer to use, such as making "signature" guns cheaper than regular guns via regulation.

aitm

I actually didn't watch all of it, but right off the bat anyone who thinks the police are going to turn over a weapon that was part of a crime must  be really ignorant of many many issues.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Jason Harvestdancer

Considering the percentage of guns that don't have that sort of history, it must have taken a lot of work to find all the guns in that shop.  I'm quite impressed with how much effort went into setting up that video.
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

aitm

Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on June 18, 2015, 08:29:43 PM
Considering the percentage of guns that don't have that sort of history, it must have taken a lot of work to find all the guns in that shop.  I'm quite impressed with how much effort went into setting up that video.

99.99% of the population don't know what kind of gun was used against Lincoln, or either Kennedy, hell make something up, they'll believe it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on June 18, 2015, 08:29:43 PM
Considering the percentage of guns that don't have that sort of history, it must have taken a lot of work to find all the guns in that shop.  I'm quite impressed with how much effort went into setting up that video.
A few liberty were taken, I suspect. Each gun represented an exact duplicate that was used in the event they associated their firearm with. The provenance of the piece is unimportant, it's the effect that matters.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers