Is Christianity a cult?

[Colanth]

Perhaps deceptive recruiting should be added to the definition.

Like a promise that you'll go to heaven if you join, or to hell if you don't?

[BarkAtTheMoon]

I agree. But if the army is included that has an impact on the usefullness of the term 'cult'...
There should be a religious connotation in your definition at least I think.

Not at all, some cults are quite secular. Ever heard of Amway? Or the Communist Party? Even Scientology started out as non-religious.

I also think the groups we call cults are generally highly geographically localized. But I'm not sure if that should be included.

Some are, some aren't.

Never heard about Amway before, but I'm assuming you mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway
And I see what you mean, furthermore you are right.

But criminal organisations would be cults as well. By definition. To me this is problematic.

Maybe we can find a distinctive difference in the reasons for people to join up?

Amway's more pyramid scam than cult I think, though most pyramid scams have a certain amount of cultish influence on members.

[GurrenLagann]

Social ostracism and unacceptance are irrelevant. The Catholic Church was a cult in the dark ages, despite holding considerable power. Many strains of Islam are cults regardless of popular support. It all comes down to the level of control.

It IS relevant, because part of the reason for the greater control is the fact that they are ostracized for being too alien to the society. Hence, the leaders of the cult/religion necessarily have to maintain greater control, lest the cult/religion fizzle out of existence because of people who can't take the ostracization and try to conform.

How was the CC a cult back then? How are certain sects of Islam cults? If all you're merely saying is that X branch of Y religion dubbed X a cult, you're not saying anything meaningful, much in the same way that various Christian denominations claiming other denominations to not be "true" Christians is a meaningless statement near as I can tell.

> To me the only difference between "religion" and a "cult" are the number of members...

A religion is a cult with political clout.

Frank

This idea has already been refuted more than a few times above...

I dispute that very much.

[Jmpty]

If you listen to fundies, everything but xtianity is a cult.

[The Non Prophet]

Absolutely. The only difference between religion and cult is the number of followers + power.

Cults get boners over the thought of being a religion, just ask any new religion.

[Youssuf Ramadan]

I'm in the middle of reading the book written by the niece of David Miscavage about her life in the Church of Scientology. They heavily push church over everyone else including friends and family, even forcing Sea Org families to split up in different parts of the country to the point the kids and parents hardly ever see each other or talk to each other and are made to feel like they're wrong for missing each other.

So yeah, Christianity in its purest form is a cult. Very few Christian sects still take that verse to heart, though.


* http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE It's a good book and quite an interesting take on growing up amongst the highest levels of the church. I've read a lot about Scientology before, but some of the stuff in here is still blowing my mind.

Jenna Miscavige Hill is a sweetheart from what I hear about her. She's nothing like her uncle Dave. If you want to read the stories of escaped ex-Scientologists, Blown For Good by Marc Headley is another good one.

A Piece Of Blue Sky by Jon Atack is another one.  A great read.   It used to be rarer than rocking horse shit due to continuing Scn. litigation, but I'm not sure if that is still the case....

The key is the definition of cult.  Here's what you get when you enter "define:cult" into Google:

cult  
/k?lt/
Noun

   1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
   2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

Synonyms
worship - religion - adoration

Definition 1 fits essentially all current religions.  What keeps religions out of definition 2 is only their size.  Many people qualify as "others" and regard Christianity, Islam, etc., as strange and sinister.  

Frank

I guess when you look at the definitions, the next step would be to unpack the term 'religious' too in order to better define the previous term.

[_Xenu_]

How was the CC a cult back then?

By wielding vast say in matters of life and death, far beyond say, your local Unitarians. They had the power to imprison people, excommunicate them, or even burn them at the stake merely for disagreement with doctrine. People were expected to attend Mass daily and confess their sins to a priest. That's a cult, no matter how widely it was accepted.

How are certain sects of Islam cults?

By wielding vast say in matters of life and death, far beyond say, your local Unitarians.  Wahhabi Islam, as practice and taught in Saudi Arabia would be one. Do I even need to explain their dominance over individuals?

If all you're merely saying is that X branch of Y religion dubbed X a cult, you're not saying anything meaningful,

Of course I am. I'm stating that certain offshoots of Y religion are cults. Aka, Jehovah's Witness, LDS, the Moonies. Just because something has its roots in religion Y, doesn't disqualify it from being a cult.

much in the same way that various Christian denominations claiming other denominations to not be "true" Christians is a meaningless statement near as I can tell.

It is meaningless, because they use theological criteria instead of psychological.

[_Xenu_]

A Piece Of Blue Sky by Jon Atack is another one.  A great read.   It used to be rarer than rocking horse shit due to continuing Scn. litigation, but I'm not sure if that is still the case....

Its something of a tradition among people who write about Scientology to eventually make their work free to to the public. You can read A Piece Of Blue Sky here.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... ntents.htm

[_Xenu_]

It IS relevant, because part of the reason for the greater control is the fact that they are ostracized for being too alien to the society. Hence, the leaders of the cult/religion necessarily have to maintain greater control, lest the cult/religion fizzle out of existence because of people who can't take the ostracization and try to conform.

Rather than making a good point here, you're presenting a "chicken or the egg" type paradox. Even ignoring that, it still doesn't address older organizations with mainstream reach that are still cults.

[BarkAtTheMoon]

A Piece Of Blue Sky by Jon Atack is another one.  A great read.   It used to be rarer than rocking horse shit due to continuing Scn. litigation, but I'm not sure if that is still the case....

Its something of a tradition among people who write about Scientology to eventually make their work free to to the public. You can read A Piece Of Blue Sky here.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... ntents.htm

It seems like the way things are going, Scientology is destined to implode with all the insane paranoia in the church and so many top execs bailing including about all of David Miscavige's family and whatever happened to his wife Shelly. They clearly suppress knowledge of what happened with SP's within the church, but people are gonna notice people like that disappearing after a while.

I was looking at Operation Clambake earlier and saw a thing about the two of his former top guys, Rathbun & Rinder, who left and have accused David of abusing them. They are two of the people (along with Rathbun's wife) that are pretty prominent in Jenna Hill's book that had been dealing, sometimes relatively understanding sometimes downright abusive, with her during her troubles before she left the church. It's strange at the point I'm at in her book that those guy's have since left the church. Seems ol' Dave is trying to one up the level of crazy LRH reached in his latter years.

ETA: I really need to just hurry up and finish the rest of her book. One thing with reading on a Kindle app, it keeps you from staying up real late banging out a bunch of chapters cause you don't as easily see just how much of the book you have left like with a physical book. But it also keeps you from banging out a bunch of chapters cause you don't as easily see just how much of the book you have left.

[Colanth]

If you listen to fundies, everything but xtianity is a cult.

Everything but their particular cult is a cult.  Catholicism is a cult to  most fundies, as is Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, Christian Science, etc.

[_Xenu_]

It seems like the way things are going, Scientology is destined to implode with all the insane paranoia in the church and so many top execs bailing including about all of David Miscavige's family and whatever happened to his wife Shelly. They clearly suppress knowledge of what happened with SP's within the church, but people are gonna notice people like that disappearing after a while.

All very true. It makes for some entertaining reading though, because CofS is pretty much always being rocked by one scandal or another.

I was looking at Operation Clambake earlier and saw a thing about the two of his former top guys, Rathbun & Rinder, who left and have accused David of abusing them.

Rathbun in particular is intent on leading a Scientology version of the Reformation, while Rinder tends to keep a somewhat lower profile. You wouldn't believe the stuff Rathbun in particular has been through. Here's a small taste:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOZF0ugtnEc

What these guys did/do to him goes beyond stalking. They even had matching shirts designed to mock him.

They are two of the people (along with Rathbun's wife) that are pretty prominent in Jenna Hill's book that had been dealing, sometimes relatively understanding sometimes downright abusive, with her during her troubles before she left the church.

Marty was a close lieutenant to Miscavige and has admitted to being involved in some really bad stuff. Mike Rinder was the head of OSA itself, but finally blew after the BBC flap with John Sweeney and Tommy Davis. He knew perfectly well Miscavige was going to RPF him.

It's strange at the point I'm at in her book that those guy's have since left the church. Seems ol' Dave is trying to one up the level of crazy LRH reached in his latter years.

He's moved well beyond it, IMO. Hubbard never had to deal with the Internet, which has become Scientologys Vietnam.

I've been meaning to read Jenna's book myself. I went ahead and ordered it from the library.