Micropayments For Forums?

[Xerographica]

Hm... you do realize that money would influence the expression of ideas?

Does making a donation to the Red Cross influence the expression of ideas?  Yeah, we get more Red Cross. 

A forum is a place in which to freely share ideas. When you have to pay to share your idea, you will be less likely to do so.

On rudebagel you could freely share your ideas.  If people valued your ideas, then they'd support them like they support the Red Cross. 

Social content of the forum will be stifled... fewer or less striking topics won't draw in additional participation, and the forum will fade away to a silent grave or become a reanimated corpse mouthing only the topics posited by the highest bidder.

And this is what we see in the non-profit sector?  Every single non-profit is exactly the same size?  My local fern society is the same size as the Red Cross? 

Capitalism doesn't solve everything and neither is it expected to. Remember that capitalism when left unrestrained is extremely susceptible to greed and can fail to take into account repercussions not readily apparent outside the scope of financial value. Monetary gains are unlikely when the consumers becomes sparse, less diversified, and the incentive to spend money no longer exists.

Is this forum socialism?  Does somebody choose which threads you allocate your time to like congress chooses which public goods you allocate your taxes to?

No, I do not support your idea in the slightest. People do not place a financial value on services rendered on typical forums. Yes there is value, but little to none that greed such as yours can capitalize.

I'm greedy for creating a website where people can easily donate to writers, artists and musicians? 

As time goes on, I can't help but to wonder if you are slowly becoming morally bankrupt.

What you say has such little bearing on reality that it would be immensely amusing... if it wasn't for democracy. 

[PickelledEggs]

I really don't see why everyone is lashing out at him for this suggestion. It was after all a suggestion. If you don't like it, you don't like it and you can even tell him that.... but no need to be hostile about it.

I don't know if something like this would really fit on the forum, but I have seen similar things in many other places. Reddit has a tip system with reddit gold and bitcoin and possibly even other ways of tipping. XDA Developers sometimes has a "if my post helped you out, why not buy me a beer" paypal donate link in member's signatures. It's not really that far fetched as you guys are assuming. Is it right for this forum though? IDK.

It's not even up to us. It's up to Wolf because he owns and maintains the site.

Everyone just chill out....

[the_antithesis]

1. Is it a shitty idea to force people to sponsor shitty ideas?
A. Yes
B. No

Why are you so shit at following a simple conversation?

Let's back up.

This is a market.

No, it's not. This is a social forum.

There will be no further conversation on this topic until you wrap your brain around that concept.

Because I have a good grip on your side of it. I used to work for a company called APAC. It was a customer service outsourcer. The name stands for All People Are Customers. I find that to be one of the most cynical, jaded, disgusting sentiments I have ever encountered. It's a world view where the only thing of value is money and other people are only as valuable as the money they give you.

We don't need that. We have our own coin.

Not that long ago, one of the other members here lost a close family member. I had posted something in an attempt to offer them comfort. It did and they thanked me for it. That's real live human social interaction and it would not have been improved if money had changed hands. That would have ruined everything.

So suffice to say, I do not like this idea and I happen to think that anyone who would consider this idea has something seriously wrong with them.

This forum is not Reddit... whatever the fuck Reddit is. (I had watched this video and I'm still not sure) Nor is it a trade forum where people who work in a given field can share advice and "buying a beer" would be a nice way to repay someone's help.

This is a social forum. The benefits and rewards are social, not monetary and would not be improved if they were.

In any case, I wouldn't use such a feature and can see anyone else having a use for it, either.

[drunkenshoe]

It's a very bad idea.

Hm... you do realize that money would influence the expression of ideas? A forum is a place in which to freely share ideas. When you have to pay to share your idea, you will be less likely to do so. Social content of the forum will be stifled... fewer or less striking topics won't draw in additional participation, and the forum will fade away to a silent grave or become a reanimated corpse mouthing only the topics posited by the highest bidder.

This.^

[the_antithesis]

Hm... you do realize that money would influence the expression of ideas? A forum is a place in which to freely share ideas. When you have to pay to share your idea, you will be less likely to do so. Social content of the forum will be stifled... fewer or less striking topics won't draw in additional participation, and the forum will fade away to a silent grave or become a reanimated corpse mouthing only the topics posited by the highest bidder.

This would happen. I used to frequent an RPG site called Gaming Outpost and when the dot com advertizing bubble burst, they instituted a subscription service when you basically pay for the privilege of posting on their forum. The forum dried up right quick, with most former members going to RPG.net.  A couple stuck around because GO had offered forums to small publishers. But these quickly became echo chambers for the author and their friends. I hadn't been there in a while, but the site appears to be gone now.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom about it, but such an addition will change things, in a big way and quickly or it will be totally ignored, which raises the question of why even bother with it.

[drunkenshoe]

I don't want to be all doom and gloom about it, but such an addition will change things, in a big way and quickly or it will be totally ignored, which raises the question of why even bother with it.

It would kill the forum right away, not just change it. Most people would quit.

You are talking about an RPG forum that died. Something that people do as a hobby, for direct/instant fun. AF is much different than that. Bidding on posts in a forum based on religion and politics? What a mess would that be. The whole thing about this forum is that people come and hang around freely. Also think about people who would like to surf the site in secret.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

It's not even the shitty concept of payment for posting that digs in my crawl so much as it's xerograpgica's shitty idea.. Nothing personal Xerographica, but you're a dirtball and I'm not about to pay anyone for posting..End of story..
By the way if anyone wants to send me money for posting this you're dumber than I thought,  but by all means I'll spend it wisely on booze and hookers.. 

[PickelledEggs]

Nothing personal Xerographica, but you're a dirtball

I forgot that xerographia is a dirtball, but now its' ringing a bell again.

[PickelledEggs]

Also. Alethia hit the nail on the head with what I would say is the most important point of all; that it would ruin and muffle the ideas conversed on this site. We have a lot of hefty discussions and the second tipping for comments are involved, that will be destroyed. I can see a tip system working in a forum such as XDA Developers, a forum centered around tech advice and developing software, but not on a forum where the main focus is discussions of politics and the views involved with them.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I forgot that xerographia is a dirtball, but now its' ringing a bell again.

What?  You're NOT sending me all your money?  You dirtb.... Oh..never mind..

[Aletheia]

Does making a donation to the Red Cross influence the expression of ideas?  Yeah, we get more Red Cross. 
On rudebagel you could freely share your ideas.  If people valued your ideas, then they'd support them like they support the Red Cross. 
And this is what we see in the non-profit sector?  Every single non-profit is exactly the same size?  My local fern society is the same size as the Red Cross? 
Is this forum socialism?  Does somebody choose which threads you allocate your time to like congress chooses which public goods you allocate your taxes to?
I'm greedy for creating a website where people can easily donate to writers, artists and musicians? 
What you say has such little bearing on reality that it would be immensely amusing... if it wasn't for democracy. 

The Red Cross is an entity different from a forum. A charity is a different entity than the "pay as you go" plan that you had for the forum. Please, let's not divert the issue with straw man fallacies.

No, this forum is not socialism, but your proposed idea would encourage someone to choose which thread they  should allocate their time to based predominantly on which topics have the most financial support.

No, you are greedy for wishing to create a website where people donate are coerced into paying if they want a particular topic to thrive.

What I say has significant bearing on reality - given that your potential "customer base" offers your idea no support. Reality has practically given you real-time feedback.

If the forum is in need of a fund raiser then all they need to do is ask its members to donate what they can spare. The quality of the forum experience and the loyalty of its members are the determining factors in what will make or break a forum. This forum was saved at least once before - not due to mandatory "donations" but from the forum members making a decision to help the forum.

[Xerographica]

The Red Cross is an entity different from a forum. A charity is a different entity than the "pay as you go" plan that you had for the forum. Please, let's not divert the issue with straw man fallacies.

Is the Red Cross an entity different from a fern society?  All entities are different but at the end of the day you have people doing different things with society's limited resources.  Look at me!  I did something different with society's limited resources.  I created the world's first micropayments forum.  Look at you!  You don't like what I did with society's limited resources.  So you don't give me your support, financial or otherwise, and this keeps additional resources out of my hands. 

No, this forum is not socialism, but your proposed idea would encourage someone to choose which thread they  should allocate their time to based predominantly on which topics have the most financial support.

If some topics on this forum have more financial support than other topics... it means that there's greater demand for some topics.  And, for some reason, I think that it's important to know the demand for topics.  There's greater demand for the Red Cross than for my local fern society.  Do I have to agree with this demand disparity?  No.  But the information is meaningful.  A lot more people are willing to sacrifice for disaster relief than they are for fern appreciation.  People's willingness to sacrifice communicates what's important to them. 

You're free to sacrifice your time to communicate that it's important to you that this forum not give people the opportunity to freely sacrifice their money to communicate what's important to them.  Well... I think you might need to think things through a bit more. 

No, you are greedy for wishing to create a website where people donate are coerced into paying if they want a particular topic to thrive.

Who said anything about coercion?  I didn't.  Topics can't thrive without sacrifice.  Right now you're ok with people freely sacrificing their time to topics... but you're not ok with people freely sacrificing their money to topics.  You're economically incoherent.  As if sacrifice is somehow different depending on what is being sacrificed.  When it comes to sacrifice... the issue is the size of the sacrifice.  If you sacrifice a lot of something... whether it's time or money... then the topic must be important to you.  And if a lot of people also sacrifice a lot for the topic... then the topic must be important to a lot of people.  And if something is important to a lot of people... then society's limited resources should be allocated accordingly.  Again, do I have to agree with the allocation?  No.  And if I disagree with the allocation then the ball's in my court.  So I go out and start the world's first micropayments forum in order to try and help people understand the importance of being free to communicate with their money what's important to them.

What I say has significant bearing on reality - given that your potential "customer base" offers your idea no support. Reality has practically given you real-time feedback.

Hah!  No support is the worst!  The fact of the matter is that micropayments are inevitable.  Any website that allows its customers to communicate their demand will end up with a better supply.  And everybody wants a better supply.  This is a fundamental truism.  And no, demand isn't likes!  Again, it's a function of sacrifice. 

Consumers: Our sacrifice communicates our demand!
Producers: We get the message loud and clear!

Who wants to participate in a website/market where there's a disparity between demand and supply?  You want to go to a restaurant where you order a salad and the waiter brings you a steak? 

It's not going to be my website that does the best job of facilitating the communication of demand.  And maybe it won't even be the website that gets the ball rolling in this direction.  All I know is that it's a good direction.  So that's where I allocated my resources. 

If the forum is in need of a fund raiser then all they need to do is ask its members to donate what they can spare. The quality of the forum experience and the loyalty of its members are the determining factors in what will make or break a forum. This forum was saved at least once before - not due to mandatory "donations" but from the forum members making a decision to help the forum.

Ah, such noble and loyal members... willing to sacrifice their money to keep the forum alive!  It's too bad that they can't be trusted to sacrifice their money to keep important topics alive! 

I think perhaps no two members have the same exact amount of time to sacrifice to this forum.  There's some long haired atheist guy named Alex who works too much and barely has any time for his family.  How often does he visit this forum and read the threads?  Maybe once a month?  And how often does he post?  Maybe even less frequently?  But he's an atheist through and through.  He's one of our brothers.  When he visits this forum... if there's a topic that really resonates with him... I want him to have the option to use his money to communicate to the rest of us that the topic is important to him. 

Alex: My fellow brothers and sisters, I don't have the time to post as often as I like, but I'm an atheist just like the rest of you!  I'm making a sacrifice to this topic because it's important to me... so it's worth amplifying.  This information is worth paying attention to!  Please read this first!  It correlates and corresponds with what I know to be true!  It's a smart strategy.  It's a good argument.  It's a solid plan.  I've seen it work countless times before.   

Aletheia: No Alex, put your money away!  Even though you don't post here very often... we already know which topics are important to you!  Or, we don't care which topics are important to you.  In any case, put your money away.  We only sacrifice time on this forum.  Except when we want to keep this forum alive.  Then we sacrifice money.  But only then. 

Markets work because they integrate, rather than ignore, what's important to every participant in the market.  Important information is transmitted to every member in the network. 

So what would happen if this forum became a better market?  Atheism would win sooner rather than later. 

A few weeks back I watched that sci-fi movie where the main character starts utilizing more and more of her brain.  As she does so her powers and ability increase exponentially. 

If we think of this forum as a brain... what percentage are we currently using?  If you have trouble imagining the existence of members like Alex... then you probably think that this brain is at 70%.  You probably think it adequately taps into, integrates, weighs and transmits dispersed knowledge.   But you'd be really wrong.   This forum has plenty of Alex's.  The vast majority of this brain consists of unfired neurons.   They would all fire if we facilitated micropayments.   

While posting in another forum I learned that George Zimmerman had been kinda shot in the face.  This was a title of one of the threads that was listed on the right hand side of the thread that I was reading.  Would Alex have spent money on this topic?  I wouldn't have. 

Right now on this forum there's a topic that members would sacrifice the most amount of money for.  And for some reason you're all ok not knowing which topic it is.  How much money would even be allocated to this unknown topic?  $5 dollars?  $20 dollars?  $100 dollars? 

Imagine some member who hasn't signed in for a while discovering that he has a wallet... and there's $100 dollars in it!  Would he cash out or use it to communicate which topics are important to him? 

If we facilitated micropayments... at a glance we'd be able to see which topics are the most valuable for the past day, week, month and year.  Everybody would visit on a daily basis because it would be quick and easy to see information that was most worthy of sacrifice.  And as the value of the most worthy topics increased... this increasingly large incentive/reward would compete intelligent atheists away from other uses of their time. 

Elon Musk recently gave $10 million dollars to the Future of Life Institute (FLI).  What does the FLI do with the money?  It competes really smart people away from other endeavors. 

Do we, as atheists, want to compete really smart people away from other endeavors?  We should!  Will paying pennies for posts accomplish this?  Heh.  Not overnight.  But it's a start!

Allocating pennies competes people with an IQ of 100 away from other endeavors.  These people create topics worth nickles... which competes people with an IQ of 115 away from other endeavors.  These people create topics worth dimes... which competes people with an IQ of 120 away from other endeavors.  These people create topics worth quarters.  This process will continue until other forums/websites/organizations start to notice the value of facilitating micropayments.  But by then... this forum would have proliferated a massive abundance of valuable information. 

[SGOS]

Is this some kind of back door attempt to start a debate about capitalism?

[drunkenshoe]

[spoiler]Is the Red Cross an entity different from a fern society?  All entities are different but at the end of the day you have people doing different things with society's limited resources.  Look at me!  I did something different with society's limited resources.  I created the world's first micropayments forum.  Look at you!  You don't like what I did with society's limited resources.  So you don't give me your support, financial or otherwise, and this keeps additional resources out of my hands. 
If some topics on this forum have more financial support than other topics... it means that there's greater demand for some topics.  And, for some reason, I think that it's important to know the demand for topics.  There's greater demand for the Red Cross than for my local fern society.  Do I have to agree with this demand disparity?  No.  But the information is meaningful.  A lot more people are willing to sacrifice for disaster relief than they are for fern appreciation.  People's willingness to sacrifice communicates what's important to them. 

You're free to sacrifice your time to communicate that it's important to you that this forum not give people the opportunity to freely sacrifice their money to communicate what's important to them.  Well... I think you might need to think things through a bit more. 
Who said anything about coercion?  I didn't.  Topics can't thrive without sacrifice.  Right now you're ok with people freely sacrificing their time to topics... but you're not ok with people freely sacrificing their money to topics.  You're economically incoherent.  As if sacrifice is somehow different depending on what is being sacrificed.  When it comes to sacrifice... the issue is the size of the sacrifice.  If you sacrifice a lot of something... whether it's time or money... then the topic must be important to you.  And if a lot of people also sacrifice a lot for the topic... then the topic must be important to a lot of people.  And if something is important to a lot of people... then society's limited resources should be allocated accordingly.  Again, do I have to agree with the allocation?  No.  And if I disagree with the allocation then the ball's in my court.  So I go out and start the world's first micropayments forum in order to try and help people understand the importance of being free to communicate with their money what's important to them.
Hah!  No support is the worst!  The fact of the matter is that micropayments are inevitable.  Any website that allows its customers to communicate their demand will end up with a better supply.  And everybody wants a better supply.  This is a fundamental truism.  And no, demand isn't likes!  Again, it's a function of sacrifice. 

Consumers: Our sacrifice communicates our demand!
Producers: We get the message loud and clear!

Who wants to participate in a website/market where there's a disparity between demand and supply?  You want to go to a restaurant where you order a salad and the waiter brings you a steak? 

It's not going to be my website that does the best job of facilitating the communication of demand.  And maybe it won't even be the website that gets the ball rolling in this direction.  All I know is that it's a good direction.  So that's where I allocated my resources. 
Ah, such noble and loyal members... willing to sacrifice their money to keep the forum alive!  It's too bad that they can't be trusted to sacrifice their money to keep important topics alive! 

I think perhaps no two members have the same exact amount of time to sacrifice to this forum.  There's some long haired atheist guy named Alex who works too much and barely has any time for his family.  How often does he visit this forum and read the threads?  Maybe once a month?  And how often does he post?  Maybe even less frequently?  But he's an atheist through and through.  He's one of our brothers.  When he visits this forum... if there's a topic that really resonates with him... I want him to have the option to use his money to communicate to the rest of us that the topic is important to him. 

Alex: My fellow brothers and sisters, I don't have the time to post as often as I like, but I'm an atheist just like the rest of you!  I'm making a sacrifice to this topic because it's important to me... so it's worth amplifying.  This information is worth paying attention to!  Please read this first!  It correlates and corresponds with what I know to be true!  It's a smart strategy.  It's a good argument.  It's a solid plan.  I've seen it work countless times before.   

Aletheia: No Alex, put your money away!  Even though you don't post here very often... we already know which topics are important to you!  Or, we don't care which topics are important to you.  In any case, put your money away.  We only sacrifice time on this forum.  Except when we want to keep this forum alive.  Then we sacrifice money.  But only then. 

Markets work because they integrate, rather than ignore, what's important to every participant in the market.  Important information is transmitted to every member in the network. 

So what would happen if this forum became a better market?  Atheism would win sooner rather than later. 

A few weeks back I watched that sci-fi movie where the main character starts utilizing more and more of her brain.  As she does so her powers and ability increase exponentially. 

If we think of this forum as a brain... what percentage are we currently using?  If you have trouble imagining the existence of members like Alex... then you probably think that this brain is at 70%.  You probably think it adequately taps into, integrates, weighs and transmits dispersed knowledge.   But you'd be really wrong.   This forum has plenty of Alex's.  The vast majority of this brain consists of unfired neurons.   They would all fire if we facilitated micropayments.   

While posting in another forum I learned that George Zimmerman had been kinda shot in the face.  This was a title of one of the threads that was listed on the right hand side of the thread that I was reading.  Would Alex have spent money on this topic?  I wouldn't have. 

Right now on this forum there's a topic that members would sacrifice the most amount of money for.  And for some reason you're all ok not knowing which topic it is.  How much money would even be allocated to this unknown topic?  $5 dollars?  $20 dollars?  $100 dollars? 

Imagine some member who hasn't signed in for a while discovering that he has a wallet... and there's $100 dollars in it!  Would he cash out or use it to communicate which topics are important to him? 

If we facilitated micropayments... at a glance we'd be able to see which topics are the most valuable for the past day, week, month and year.  Everybody would visit on a daily basis because it would be quick and easy to see information that was most worthy of sacrifice.  And as the value of the most worthy topics increased... this increasingly large incentive/reward would compete intelligent atheists away from other uses of their time. 

Elon Musk recently gave $10 million dollars to the Future of Life Institute (FLI).  What does the FLI do with the money?  It competes really smart people away from other endeavors. 

Do we, as atheists, want to compete really smart people away from other endeavors?  We should!  Will paying pennies for posts accomplish this?  Heh.  Not overnight.  But it's a start!

Allocating pennies competes people with an IQ of 100 away from other endeavors.  These people create topics worth nickles... which competes people with an IQ of 115 away from other endeavors.  These people create topics worth dimes... which competes people with an IQ of 120 away from other endeavors.  These people create topics worth quarters.  This process will continue until other forums/websites/organizations start to notice the value of facilitating micropayments.  But by then... this forum would have proliferated a massive abundance of valuable information.
[/spoiler]

[Aletheia]

Xerographica, what color is the sky where you live?

There is a ton of assumptions in your post and very little attention paid to ideas you do not agree with. Enjoy fighting with straw men... when you're finished you might take into account the topic at hand.

As I said before, capitalism isn't necessary for every given situation and it is not expected to be --- except from you apparently.

Never have I had to contend with a "business" minded individual who fails so completely to take into account the motivations of their "customer base." Yes, it's less predictable to rely on a donations drive than a steady supply of "micropayments" but then again, keeping something like this afloat requires effort, persistence, and a good rapport. The method you propose offers a constant reminder to visitors to the forum that money is the main goal. Where you see "stupid easy" others see annoying insistence of payments for every little thing. The forum's main incentive for members is the atmosphere of freely exchanged ideas and limited camaraderie. Alter this and you risk losing the "bait" that draws in visitors/members. A forum with a strong member base and good rapport has a greater chance of receiving donations from members who willingly give what they can.

If you do not like the idea of donations, then the use of ads is another route. Members might be annoyed slightly by them, but they won't feel like they have to pay as they go when navigating the forum. Less intrusiveness is required for a forum environment.