Another shooting that has nothing to do with Islam

Started by Hijiri Byakuren, May 04, 2015, 01:13:52 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

drunkenshoe

#45
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on May 04, 2015, 02:59:02 PM
Agree, in principle, with everything you said. But it has nothing significant to do with this particular act of extremism. The perpetrators were Americans themselves, I believe. One was from Arizona. This was caused by an extreme intolerance of blasphemy. This was caused by religion. This was caused by valuing a holy-proscription, over peoples lives.

How being born in the USA or 'being an American' changes anything? Do you have any idea how many Eurpoean born white people traveling to fight for various terrorist groups in the Middle East? Starting with ISIS. Young people from normal families. Not street kids, thrown out or abused. Your statement is a good example of being cut out.

Guys, there is not one thing playing itself out seperately from what's going on in the world. Your country does not exist on some different plane of existence free from world issues. It's subjected to the same bullshit going on around the world in every.fucking.thing. From rape to famine, from low wages to homeless people, from bad education to media bullshit, from human trafficking to petty theft.

QuoteI plan on doing a "Where's Waldo" style satire drawing called, "Where's Jesus," to go with my poem, "Hide and Seek." I don't care if someone gets offended by it. They should be offended, because I'm calling them stupid. That has nothing to do with being a culturally isolated American, and everything to do with freedom of expression.

You can call them whatever you like. Or write any poem you like. It's your perception, not your culture that is cut out. Your culture is perfectly in sync with extremists and their actions; they are not just defined that way. It's how you conditioned to percieve it. And yes, you are cut out from reality when you handle this as an issue of freedom of speech. Because it is an unquestioned conviction and expectation comes along with it. 'I'm an American, I have these rights.' Yes, it is a fact that you do. Another fact is that you might get killed for exercising them. And that is nothing different than me or some other person being killed for a similar thing in somewhere in the Middle East. You are in some fucking delusion if you think it is different or a few isolated religious nuts are responsible.

Actually, American freedom of speech is a constructed delusion, but as noone will watch or read what I posted, let's skip it.

What you are doing is exactly what I wrote in the post about your imaginary demise. You are completely avoiding everything that led here that created this people and going out from the other side of the tunnel with an isolated couple of religious fanatics that fell from the sky. You just didn't define them as psyhcopaths. You might as well. Same bullshit.


QuoteBut in my case, I used to be a Christian, so I have a right to ridicule it. I'm not sure that a contest for non-Muslims to use the image of Mohammed has quite the same integrity, but any good art is is provocative and offensive to someone.

You don't have to be an ex-christian to do that. I have never participated in any religion, but technically I have the same right as everyone does in an ideal world.

"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Solitary

Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 04, 2015, 04:55:31 AM
Hmmm, why is that familiar? Oh... Godzilla! Have you seen the last one? He was so brave and cute. No wait, Avengers? Iron Man? Oooh wait, were you talking about corporate democracy or international Middle East policies led by the USA? When you implied naked agression, mass annihilation and no compromise; win or lose, for some reason those came up.  :think:

Also I am curious what is this has worked in 14th century for Christianity and not for Islam that is related to our age in any terms? What is this secular criticism of some religion in 14th century West?

Oh and hey, how are you? No hugs? You are breaking my heart.

SmOn You are so correct shoe! OOOOOO X Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Solomon Zorn

#47
QuoteGuys, there is not one thing playing itself out seperately from what's going on in the world. Your country does not exist on some different plane of existence free from world issues. It's subjected to the same bullshit going on around the world in every.fucking.thing. From rape to famine, from low wages to homeless people, from bad education to media bullshit, from human trafficking to petty theft.

The fact is this: no one but the dead guys knows, exactly what motivated these two individuals to go to the art exhibit. So stop being so fucking arrogant with me! I said that I agree with your assessment in general of US policies aggravating world tensions, but it's an inductive fallacy to assume that an every act of Muslim extremism is caused by US policies abroad. And this specific act of Americans against Americans, is more likely motivated by religion, not politics.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

drunkenshoe

#48
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on May 04, 2015, 04:17:23 PM
The fact is this: no one but the dead guys knows, exactly what motivated these two individuals to go to the art exhibit. So stop being so fucking arrogant with me! I said that I agree with your assessment in general of US policies aggravating world tensions, but it's an inductive fallacy to assume that an every act of Muslim extremism is caused by US policies abroad. And this specific act of Americans against Americans, is more likely motivated by religion, not politics.

I wasn't aware I looked arrogant. I was being sincere. Have you ever thought may be I just 'talk' like this with everyone without looking down on? 

Anyway, yes not every act is caused by the same thing. But I don't agree with your point of view. Every act of terrorism is political in nature. Domestic or international. That's why it is done.

Am I wrong, may be. But I am not being arrogant. I was trying to explain something.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Solomon Zorn

#49
Here's something you said earlier that bugged me:

Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 04, 2015, 04:33:03 AM
In 20th century, esp. after it was established that art didn't have to depict nature to be 'beautiful' so 'good' and 'correct' and therefore 'right'; more than that 'beauty' had nothing to do with art, Western Culture developed ways of conveying ideas, criticism or opinions with it. You can create every kind of feeling with art, impose on people, force to build an empathy, you can also practically slap them with something they don't want to see. Art became a voice for pretty much everything you wanted to say. If you want to convey a point of view or deliver a message of criticism you needed to provoke people, more, shock them in accordance to inspire. So what was essentially an artistic objective became a form of speech.

As a result it has worked in the Western World, reached up to a harmless point more less.  However, this all happened gradually and has given its fruits ONLY WHEN the Western culture reached an economically superior state, when with that the laws and social contracts developed. Only when people have become individuals this works. We are all individualists guys, don't forget that.

Individualism is not just something that occurs as a result of a culture's socio economical success among other world cultures.
It also occurs and develops because that cullture defines itself as the 'ideal culture' and its people as the group of individuals with the 'ideal identity'. A culture that defines itself 'superior' with its race, traditions, history; sees itself as righteous on its acts in every scale. State policy or individual behaviour. Anyone who is not from that 'ideal set of conditions' is deemed to be negated in some form. Like the Middle Eastern or generally Eastern people. So creating a so called "Clash of civilisations" which today turned into another bullshit of so called "Religious Wars".
How does the red follow from the blue? It seems to me like a non-sequitur. Not that our culture doesn't do those things in red, but I don't see that you've made a reasonable connection to individualism.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

aitm

Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 04, 2015, 02:31:24 PM
They do NOT need blasphemy to attack, it just provides the best opportunity that's all.

The Indians didn't launch attacks on the British and they pretty much fucked them up for several decades. The Vietamese and Algerians didn't have suicide bombers against the French, you don't see the Polish or English fucking with Germany, the Japanese don't have extremist against the chinese or americans. Your opinion that this is merely against "america" due to its past or recent actions, I think, is wrong. It is indeed about THEM being and acting as a religion against infidels and if in america all the better as this is the new recruitment area, the holy grail of the devotee, to get the american to hide amongst themselves and commit the crime for allah. Not to say this attack was that very idea, but it was against a f-ing cartoon show.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Brian37

All three need to stop dodging religion with words like "race" "ethnic" "culture" "nationality". All three are tribal books RELIGIONS, and the only difference between them are the gang symbols. The only difference between a street gang say Bloods vs Kripts and religion, is that religion has political power. But both are followed by the respective members as a form of group survival.

We have got to stop coddling religion pretending it is special or deserves anything outside the right to make the claim. Ideas however by themselves do not deserve pedestals. RELIGION is the cause and I am tired of people making excuses for any of them.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

drunkenshoe

Quote from: aitm on May 04, 2015, 05:09:26 PM
The Indians didn't launch attacks on the British and they pretty much fucked them up for several decades. The Vietamese and Algerians didn't have suicide bombers against the French, you don't see the Polish or English fucking with Germany, the Japanese don't have extremist against the chinese or americans.

Irish fucked the English well. Kurds worked good here too with suicide bombers. None of it was for allah.   

No, it's not just against Americans. It happened in London, Istanbul, Australia, Denmark, Canada...at other islamic or christian countries. America is seen as the main source of harm to the Middle East that's all. Head actor.

Cartoon show is an opportunity. Anyway they can. Direct bombing is ideal, but not easy. These events are better practically and also because it SYMBOLISES how they are seen by the western culture. 

QuoteYour opinion that this is merely against "america" due to its past or recent actions, I think, is wrong. It is indeed about THEM being and acting as a religion against infidels and if in america all the better as this is the new recruitment area, the holy grail of the devotee, to get the american to hide amongst themselves and commit the crime for allah.

Yeah it is my opinion. I just thought all of it today. Why? Because I am anti-american. That's it. I looked once at the OP and I linked it to two major figures' works into it, wrapped it with art.

And when you stomp your feet down 'no it is not, it is islam' it just turns that way. Poof!

QuoteNot to say this attack was that very idea, but it was against a f-ing cartoon show.

To attack somewhere to kill people you have never seen in your life, who never harmed you directly or indirectly IS AN ACT OF TERRORISM. And every act of terrorism is political. That's why they kill innocent civilians. That's the whole idea. Two people deciding to do this by themselves or being brainwashed to do it by a specific group doesn't change the crime they committed. And it is not cut out from its political whole. How many of these events you had in the US, 15 years ago? In Europe?



 




"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on May 04, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
Here's something you said earlier that bugged me:
How does the red follow from the blue? It seems to me like a non-sequitur. Not that our culture doesn't do those things in red, but I don't see that you've made a reasonable connection to individualism.

How is that a non-sequitur? If you can't see the link then you don't know anything about the basic differences between Eastern and Western societies and how they see/handle the person/individual.

Oh wait this is arrogant, right?   

"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Hijiri Byakuren

Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

aitm

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on May 04, 2015, 07:30:07 PM
Oh man, the rage this thread has prompted.



kinda like my sisters underwear after she ran five miles….er……or maybe something completely different….
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Solomon Zorn

Quote from: drunkenshoeOh wait this is arrogant, right?
Right! Even though I almost completely agree with you, you continue to insult me.

I just don't see how Individualism (in blue) , "also occurs and develops because" of a lot of exclusive group-think (in red).
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on May 05, 2015, 12:06:37 AM
Right! Even though I almost completely agree with you, you continue to insult me.

I didn't insult you when I wrote the post you described as arrogant. I tried to explain you something I believe you didn't see. And if you call someone arrogant for no apparent reason, it kind of distrups the way they communicate you. Is that a surprise? And no, sarcasm is not an insult.

QuoteI just don't see how Individualism (in blue) , "also occurs and develops because" of a lot of exclusive group-think (in red).

Western civilisation describes itself as the ideal civilisation and its culture as the ideal one. Individualism is a building block of that ideal culture. (Eastern world doesn't have an individualism in western sense.) And it sees itself as the ideal, because it can afford that individualism. So the western identity is based on that cultural building block. Not just in itself, but also in respect to other cultures. Western social contracts and civil rights are based on that understanding of individualism. Which is high maintenance.

Providing that high maintenance identity is not enough. It's not just about good economics, civil rights and freedom. You need to PRESERVE that identity and in accordance to preserve it you also need to PROMOTE it constantly, while you constantly need to demote other cultural identities. This creates a certain perception among the individuals of this group.

What is that called? Western convictions. Why? Because in that case whatever goes down, whatever changes Westerners see themselves as living in the the ideal in CONTRAST to the others. Control. How? By definition in contrast.

What's the result? Western individual percieves events,facts, affairs, relations international or domestic; everything under this evaluation. They percieve the exact same issues caused by the exact same sociological and anthropological circumstances in their own country completely different than what is going on in the world in others. Politics, Rape, murder, terrorism, religion, famine, economical crisis, law, government, power, classes...anything you can think of.

What's the benefit or profit of this? It's only beneficial and profitable to the fucking STATE. There isn't one good thing about this for people. It's just fucking people with a delusion of so called 'freedom of speech', so called set of liberal rights and freedoms which in fact up for sale who can pay for it. An idea of a nonexistent, inflated understanding of freedom and a dream hanging over people's heads. Selling magical beans. And people are buying those beans at every turn.

And when something goes wrong it is isolated and DISTANCED from the ideal culture and its citizens. Could be anything. Not just religious terrorism. It's always some mental illness or gun issue, some hate crime and fucking psychopath or a stupid who thinks he has a right to kill.  There is nothing wrong with the system dictates over their lives and others around the world, the politics followed. It's always the individual. It's the fucking religion. What else can it be? Fuck all the socio-psyhcological, anthropological principles. It's a fucking cartoon.

FYI, I am not upset, angry or in some distress. OR being arrogant or condescending. If you talked to me face to face, that^ would be coming out fast, a bit loud with hand gestures in an excited voice. Mediterranean. Hot blood, not hatred. That is how I talk. I think people who talked to me here would attest to that.



"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

drunkenshoe

#58
Quote from: aitm on May 04, 2015, 09:24:22 PM
kinda like my sisters underwear after she ran five miles….er……or maybe something completely different….

Really? For 3 years you have struggled with me, scolded me with 'you keep pissing people off and noone reads your posts and whatever you have to say goes poof". Now, I am not 'tough' or 'hostile' enough. Is there a way I can win? :lol:

Especially, with your perception of me as an anti-american middle eastern woman who is having an american rant for kicks. Nice prejudice.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

drunkenshoe

Here is your American terrorist acting with personal religious extremism and free from the aftremath of American international politics.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/04/us/garland-mohammed-drawing-contest-shooting/

QuoteOne suspect, identified as Elton Simpson by a federal law enforcement source, linked himself to ISIS in a tweet posted just before the attack.

He also was no stranger to federal investigators. In 2011, he was convicted of making a false statement involving international and domestic terrorism.

"If there is no check on the freedom of your speech, then let your hearts be open to the freedom of our actions," tweeted the propagandist, who was identified by two American groups that monitor jihadi websites as Junaid Hussain, a British ISIS fighter in Syria who goes by the name Abu Hussein al Britani.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/04/us-usa-shooting-texas-idUSKBN0NP01G20150504

Quote(Reuters) - Federal agents for years monitored one of the two gunmen who were shot dead after opening fire with assault rifles at a heavily guarded Texas exhibit of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.

Two government sources who asked not to be named said the shooters were roommates Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi, of Phoenix. Court documents show that Simpson had been under surveillance since 2006 and was convicted in 2011 of lying to FBI agents over his desire to join violent jihad in Somalia.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp