Author Topic: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!  (Read 3289 times)

Offline dtq123 (OP)

The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« on: April 15, 2015, 12:08:25 PM »
Note: The Following People Have Chosen A Sin
Shiranu- Lust
Aroura33- Envy
Hijiri Byakuren- Gluttony
Solitary- Vanity
Myself (dtq123)- Sloth

The Following Sins Have Not Been Taken:
Wrath, Greed


I only have so much time, and my tactic is to make counter arguments in response to other arguments; Anyone care to start?

Feel free to pick one of the two sins remaining and join in at will, remember though one sin per person.
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Offline dtq123 (OP)

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 10:56:43 PM »
Since no one has started, I better start.

Here is my first argument that shows that sloth is the worst sin:

It is one of the sins present in humans that is not productive in the eyes of natural selection.

All of the following sins make sense in the context of natural selection:

Wrath; Having the will and power to maintain your belongings help you keep them. Those who are full of wrath will do anything in their means to get what they want, which may benefit their allies since this power can either protect them, be a distraction as allies make their escape a predator, or overpower them altogether.

Gluttony; A desire to eat lots of food vigorously and to keep it from others helps keep a organism full and well.

Greed; Similarly, a desire to maintain and take resources will allow better stamina and more mating opportunities.

Envy; WARNING: I am biased to saying that this is a positive trait because I identify often with this "sin" in real life

When presented in a organism who is better than you, it motivates an organism to do whatever it takes to get it, for better or for worse.

Primitive minds will kill to get what they want, the "all or nothing" and if they win they get the prize. Intermediate minds will have more sense to move on and continue working to reach their rival's status, it takes much more effort. This effort is good and motivates us to achieve better lives.

The more slower minds of our world have much more intellect, and have made tools to assist with work; as to friends to emotions. We have grown lazy in processing our own emotions, which leads to this new farce: Loathing.

Loathing consists of obsessing over other's work, but not doing anything but that. They don't work as well and they just wither away obsessing. They are Mentally Lazy and refuse to break from that mindset.

Lust; You fuck and have kids, Animals don't have condoms silly! Seriously that fact that lust motivates us to produce kids is evil sure, but it is productive.

Lust fuels rape sure, but also fantasy and joy of a couple's sex; So is it better to say we should perform sex as though we are animals?

Please don't kill me
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 10:59:07 PM »
I won't pick either because greed is too easy and wrath is pretty much how I view the world.

Offline dtq123 (OP)

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 11:00:08 PM »
I won't pick either because greed is too easy and wrath is pretty much how I view the world.
Fair Enough

Edit: You won't kill me will you?
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 06:50:03 AM »
I'm claiming greed (it's mine and mine alone) and am butting my way in this little conversation.

Before I give an argument, I'd like to spend a few words on a quick rebuttal to sloth. Apart from the fact that 'non-productivity in the eyes of natural selection' doesn't necessarily make a good basis for discerning between 'bad' and 'worst', I think sloth can provide evolutionary advantages. Organisms that are higher strung burn through their available energy faster for example. And does the wolf that strikes first and kills the bison not take more risk than those that are slower? The wolf that strikes first doesn't even get the benefits of eating first, the pack-leader goes first. So there is a case to be made that slothfullnes can be a beneficial evolutionary advantage.

Greed is by far the worst sin, by it's sheer effect on the world as a whole. It's greed that drives those in power to stay there no matter the cost. In some cases, like the Vatican or North Korea, it doesn't matter how bad the system is; as long as those that can stay on top remain there.
But apart from that it has taken over 'normal good people' like no other sin. Yes, we've become lustfull gluttons, wrathfull people, lazy and envious of our neighbours, and our Western societies support vanity like no other before. But it's greed that has infiltrated our very core to the point that we don't even recognize it as such. The very idea of throwing a family of five on the street, mama, papa and three kids 8, 4 and 2, is repulsive. But, aha, if there is a debt; it's alright. Debts must be collected. Debts must be paid. There is hardly any barbaric act that, from letting people starve to death to denying them medical attention, that nowadays cannot be excused by this institutional greed. If you rape or hit, you'll go to jail. If you're envious or gluttonous, slothfull or vain, you'll get called out for it by others. As you will for being greedy, but greed has on a different level managed to be pardoned from any social control and has become an accepted evil in this world.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:51:45 AM by Mr.Obvious »
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

  • ULC Minister, Honorary Doctor of Divinity
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Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2015, 12:43:28 PM »
Gluttony, in some ways, goes even farther than greed. It goes beyond merely hoarding resources, but actually hoarding them for the purpose of your own extraneous consumption. How many people are starving right now, just because those of us who are better off want to stuff our pieholes until our bellies are totally distended with fat deposits?

It's not just food. How about gluttony for power? How many good leaders have been passed up by the voting populace because someone who wanted power for power's sake was willing to do do as much character assassination as it took to get the other guy out of the running? This sort of gluttonous behavior is rarely, if ever, called out by anyone in a position to change it. I would go so far as to say it's an even more accepted evil than greed is. To some people, greed is accepted because greed is good. No one has ever made the same justification for gluttony, yet here it sits, accepted by the much of the world, even those who are a victim of it, as a fact of life, and not as something that can or should be changed.

Offline dtq123 (OP)

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2015, 05:32:00 PM »
I'm busy with work today, so please tell me if this is accurate and I will get back to you on stuff.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070922085537AAFW46X
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Offline dtq123 (OP)

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2015, 12:36:41 PM »
Assuming that your lack of a response means that the definition is correct;
Greed is the desire to gain resources and keep them, Gluttony is the overindulgence in such resources.

However, legitimate or not, "most" work for those resources. So what's the problem then?

We can't do much about the other .01% of the world, so let's skip them altogether. They will die in vain, and carry nothing to their graves. If they are dead, they can't indulge in this. Someone else will take over.

If fact, we all want praise right? So if we praise them for letting a couple of dollars go, they will let go of their mass fortune more often. Taxes and scolding of them has yet to prove to be effective, so why not try this?
Obvious bias is obvious
Anyway, this benefits their families, and as I am a selfish and a very poor man who "borrows" computers from lost and found areas and sells them to friends, I am biased yes. At the same time I know I have a less favorable lot in life, yet am able to say that I just get by on my family's food stamps and still able to say that greed and gluttony are good. They help me through my depression and numbed me to the fact that my parents are in debt. I do help them of course, but indulging in technology has helped me through times where being pure would have cost me my life.


I TOLD YOU I WAS FUCKED UP!

This shouldn't be much of a surprise.
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 02:29:50 AM »
However, legitimate or not, "most" work for those resources. So what's the problem then?

We can't do much about the other .01% of the world, so let's skip them altogether. They will die in vain, and carry nothing to their graves. If they are dead, they can't indulge in this. Someone else will take over.

If fact, we all want praise right? So if we praise them for letting a couple of dollars go, they will let go of their mass fortune more often. Taxes and scolding of them has yet to prove to be effective, so why not try this?

Kind of lost me there, sorry.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline dtq123 (OP)

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 10:56:48 AM »
Kind of lost me there, sorry.
Rant Mode got me. Sorry.

Most "Work" for resources, meaning it takes effort to get those resources.

Their sin is forgiven once they are dead, since most believe they will go to hell.

Even so, those who don't recognize that they can't take anything to their graves, meaning that we eventually get those resources... our descendants do at least.

The greedy die. So do the gluttonous. Enough said?

No? How about they lose the meaning to their lives.

And... rant mode took over again T_T
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2015, 06:57:23 AM »
I still seem to have a spot of trouble trying to understand your rant mode, sorry. :p

But what I do seem to understand from what you and Hijiri say is that you argue that 'greed' can be a good thing. Especially for those in 'lower tiers' of society. Seeing as they must have this trait in order to survive.
But that is exactly one of the main reasons why I figure it such a masterfully wicked sin. We've grown to accept it, to view it in a positive light. It has corrupted our society to such a degree that we see it as legit and can't even think of a society without it; we've bonded the two inherently in our mind, while they are not in actuality.

You may pride yourself of your ability to survive in this dog-eat-dog world by your ability to steel your heart and do what needs to be done. But in doing so, you forget it shouldn't be a dog-eat-dog world. You fail to see we could be a pack. You may be tougher and better off than the vermin Chiuaua, you Jack Russel. But in your barking and clawing to desperately survive and defend what you feel is yours from the Husky and the German Sheppard, you fail to spot the kennelowners hogging the food. Their greed is the reason you and I must be vicious in the first place.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 07:01:12 AM by Mr.Obvious »
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline dtq123 (OP)

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 12:03:01 AM »
Ok, let's try this out.

Can you tell me why we are accepting of a promiscuous life, full of ourselves, who stuff themselves yet want the newest phone?

It is a façade to say that we (in the united states) want to live a pure life. We thrive on corruption.

As I implied above, Lust, Gluttony, Pride, and Envy are slowing being accepted as the norm as well. Does this mean that they are becoming more like greed in your eyes? Or are there benefits to those sins like I have mentioned before?
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2015, 12:26:18 PM »
Ok, let's try this out.

Can you tell me why we are accepting of a promiscuous life, full of ourselves, who stuff themselves yet want the newest phone?

It is a façade to say that we (in the united states) want to live a pure life. We thrive on corruption.

As I implied above, Lust, Gluttony, Pride, and Envy are slowing being accepted as the norm as well. Does this mean that they are becoming more like greed in your eyes? Or are there benefits to those sins like I have mentioned before?

I never claimed greed to be the only source of corruption. Like all sins greed too flows allong the others. As you and Hijiri suggested greed and gluttony are linked. You yourself will probably also see the link between greed and your example of envy. I merely state that no other sin has become quite as institutionalized as greed. And that no other sin allows for such barbaric acts to be excused, quite like greed.
We all want the newest phone, true. Like we all want Nikes. But we don't care about Ipod city, nor sweatshops. While I can see why you call that envy, it falls under institutionalized greed as well. We all want  steak and tuna, but we don't care about methane pollution or overfishing. It's gluttony, for sure. But it's also institutionalized greed.
But these two specific subtypes of greed don't excuse actively, in your face, mistreating of people. I myself, today, in the line of my job denied a woman the funds to go and live on her own, away from her boyfriend. I was in my right, to do so. Imagine that. I followed the rules. I did the social research. I found her non-fitting. I denied her request. And now she's going to be sued for having already signed a lease she can't afford. And everyone around me keeps telling me I did the right thing.
Don't tell me that's right. Don't tell me that kind of institutionalized greed is okay. I'm a bad-guy today. And everyone but one woman and one man excuses me and applauds me. It's sickening.

I also don't necessarily agree that we've become all that more promiscuous. One would have to define promiscuity before we could even evaluate that. And in any case I don't see why that would be 'a problem'. The defendant of lust may want to speak out on this, but I think lust is the least bad of the sins. The only possible bad side-effect of lust is rape. (Which one could see as lust meets greed and wrath by the way.)  And don't get me wrong, rape is one of the worst things in this world. But lust and promiscuity are not, by far, it's synonyms.

Pride? Well fine, people are full of themselfes. And yes, society pries on that. Marketing campaigns are a great example. But selling new-age-bullshit-anti-aging-cream isn't going to put people out on the street. It's not going to give people the right to take away all of some people's tools for survival. And for the relatively few people who do end up spending most of their cash on pride-enhancing merchandise; it's the institutionalized greed of the companies that finances this problem.

But as to your question; are they becoming more like greed or are there any positive side-effects? That's a false dichotomy. I never denied your list of positives of sins, including for greed. Nor did I ever deny that fighting and stealing in the dog-eat-dog-world won't keep you alive in the dog-eat-dog world.
Are there any possible positive side effects? Probably.  But the main driving force behind the dog-eat-dog world is greed, and that's why it's the worst sin. And the mere fact that there are positives to dispicable traits in a horrible system does nothing to improve the traits in and by themselves. Especially if they corrupt the system.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 12:29:07 PM by Mr.Obvious »
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline dtq123 (OP)

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2015, 05:41:35 PM »
It appears, you sir may have won.
Seriously though, where is everyone else?
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

  • ULC Minister, Honorary Doctor of Divinity
  • *
  • Posts: 4978
  • Total likes: 1636
  • That's DOCTOR Hijiri, to you!
    • Pathos
Re: The Seven Deadly Sins Dance!
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2015, 11:21:06 PM »
Seriously though, where is everyone else?
I kind of lost interest. 7-way debates are... kind of hard to follow.