Author Topic: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"  (Read 2417 times)

"So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« on: March 20, 2015, 05:27:53 PM »
We hear this a lot. Today I saw a comment that I really liked:

"The Universe didn't come from nothing, it came from 'We Don't Know'."

Just thought I'd share.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline trdsf

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2015, 07:53:48 PM »
Well, you can't say it's not scientifically accurate.  :D
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2015, 08:05:10 PM »
Well... It's not that we don't know.  We've got a fair idea, it just needs a little refining.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Online Munch

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2015, 08:35:25 PM »
the 'we don't know' aspect of science and discovery, is the open mindedness of finding answers to things.

Those who say they do know, but present no evidence of it, are liars and fools.

And heres the biggest crux of this debate in every concept of it. We will never fully know the beginnings of the universe, because we cannot time travel back in time to see it happen. We use science and what exists NOW to determine how something happened, like how people determine how a murder victim was killed, or how rocks and fossels were formed, we were not there when it began, but science seeks to find all evidence of what was left behind to find the answers.

theists do none of this. They sit around in their religious bubbles, believing in fictional stories as the answer to everything, while scientists painstakingly work to discover things on an atomic level, understanding the existence of dark matter, how to build constructs to let them see into the universe beyond our capacity to do so.

Theists have been touting the same shit, that never changes, since whatever religion they follow was formed centuries ago, while science keeps growing, advancing, and finding deeper meaning to the universe around us.

To say "We don't know" to a theist is their idea of them winning a debate. To a scientist, it is them saying "We will find the answers, while you remain in your bubble"

Offline SGOS

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2015, 09:14:08 PM »
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"The Universe didn't come from nothing, it came from 'We Don't Know'."

Just started a new book, A Universe From Nothing (or something like that) by Lawrence Krauss.  I'm only through 1 chapter so I don't know much yet.

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 05:09:36 PM »
I like the cyclic cosmology of Steinhardt and Turok (among others) that proposes a periodic universe that comes into being, fades, and then comes again into being, over and over again, ad infinitum.
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"Religion – it’s given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."
Jon Stewart
"Jesus was a Jew, yes, but only on his mother’s side."
Archie Bunker

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 05:31:31 PM »
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I like the cyclic cosmology of Steinhardt and Turok (among others) that proposes a periodic universe that comes into being, fades, and then comes again into being, over and over again, ad infinitum.
So where did the first one come from, smart guy?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Solitary

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 06:07:33 PM »
It just is like God.  :eek: :biggrin2:
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2015, 06:13:49 PM »
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So where did the first one come from, smart guy?

It's turtles all the way down...
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"Religion – it’s given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."
Jon Stewart
"Jesus was a Jew, yes, but only on his mother’s side."
Archie Bunker

Offline Solitary

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2015, 06:39:57 PM »
 :rotflmao:  :rotflmao: Lets keep Bertrand critics out of this! :naughty:
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2015, 02:53:54 PM »
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Just started a new book, A Universe From Nothing (or something like that) by Lawrence Krauss.  I'm only through 1 chapter so I don't know much yet.

Spoiler alert!

I've read the book. Although the central thesis is controversial it does make sense. If one calculates the total energy of the matter in the universe and subtracts the potential gravitational energy of that matter the sum is zero. The universe is a special case of nothing.
You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 10:48:28 PM »
I find that there is nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know”.  I would agree that science takes what is evident and available and draws conclusions from what is found out from what is available.

I guess that one of my frustrations, as a person who believes in Creation, comes from those who would take the strong position that I am a fool for believing so. I am not at all unintelligent…..but I am not a genius either. I am a person who observes and ponders…….knowing and understanding some things and investigating others.

Some things of which I am certain would include:
   Order does not come out of chaos
   The universe is expanding
        The universe operates with clockwork precision without which we would not have the constants that exist that enable  us to have science.
        The universe and all things in it are in a state of decaying.

I believe that in the nature of mankind is a desire to support thoughts, actions and even justify theories by “cooking the numbers” at times. This is not to say scientists are all in some sort of conspiracy…..not at all…but there must be something really huge at stake when so much is done to belittle those who believe in Intelligent Design or Creation.

We all joke about how weathermen get it wrong more than they get it right…..in fact today in my area it was forecast just yesterday that today was an 80% chance of rain……………..this morning it was forecast that today, instead of rain, we would have, and did have, a sunny day. Weather changes…….systems shift…………yet panic is trying to be seeded in the world based upon computer projections of the next 100 years and it is presented as solid fact………… we cannot get consistent reliable weather data for one week much less 100 years.  (This is simply an observation and not an attempt to get into any arguments over warming or anything else for that matter.)

I guess my general question would be…………why would I be considered a fool for seeing purpose and design in things around me from electrons to planets and moons, plants and animals, water cycle, ocean currents, etc……………….by folks who find it superior to believe that all things evolved from a one celled organism that somehow sparked to life? I say, we believe what you want to believe but also must be willing to live with the consequences.

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 11:26:39 PM »
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I find that there is nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know”.  I would agree that science takes what is evident and available and draws conclusions from what is found out from what is available.

I guess that one of my frustrations, as a person who believes in Creation, comes from those who would take the strong position that I am a fool for believing so. I am not at all unintelligent…..but I am not a genius either. I am a person who observes and ponders…….knowing and understanding some things and investigating others.

Some things of which I am certain would include:
   Order does not come out of chaos
   The universe is expanding
        The universe operates with clockwork precision without which we would not have the constants that exist that enable  us to have science.
        The universe and all things in it are in a state of decaying.

I believe that in the nature of mankind is a desire to support thoughts, actions and even justify theories by “cooking the numbers” at times. This is not to say scientists are all in some sort of conspiracy…..not at all…but there must be something really huge at stake when so much is done to belittle those who believe in Intelligent Design or Creation.

We all joke about how weathermen get it wrong more than they get it right…..in fact today in my area it was forecast just yesterday that today was an 80% chance of rain……………..this morning it was forecast that today, instead of rain, we would have, and did have, a sunny day. Weather changes…….systems shift…………yet panic is trying to be seeded in the world based upon computer projections of the next 100 years and it is presented as solid fact………… we cannot get consistent reliable weather data for one week much less 100 years.  (This is simply an observation and not an attempt to get into any arguments over warming or anything else for that matter.)

I guess my general question would be…………why would I be considered a fool for seeing purpose and design in things around me from electrons to planets and moons, plants and animals, water cycle, ocean currents, etc……………….by folks who find it superior to believe that all things evolved from a one celled organism that somehow sparked to life? I say, we believe what you want to believe but also must be willing to live with the consequences.
Sweet Jesus--another one! 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline trdsf

Re: "So you say the universe came from nothing, eh?"
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2015, 11:34:27 PM »
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I find that there is nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know”.  I would agree that science takes what is evident and available and draws conclusions from what is found out from what is available.

I guess that one of my frustrations, as a person who believes in Creation, comes from those who would take the strong position that I am a fool for believing so. I am not at all unintelligent…..but I am not a genius either. I am a person who observes and ponders…….knowing and understanding some things and investigating others.

Some things of which I am certain would include:
   Order does not come out of chaos
   The universe is expanding
        The universe operates with clockwork precision without which we would not have the constants that exist that enable  us to have science.
        The universe and all things in it are in a state of decaying.

Order does arise from chaos, actually.  Not lockstep precisely predictable order, but easily understood parameters inside which systems fit even if a precise state of affairs cannot be calculated.

And the universe does not operate with clockwork precision, it operates with a certain amount of precision that places definable limits on predictability.  I'm going to recommend Newton's Clock: Chaos in the Solar System by Ivars Peterson for a better explanation than I can give.

Lastly, things are in a general, but not absolute, state of decay.  Entropy can be halted and reversed locally, with the input of energy from outside -- for example, the shockwave of a supernova detonation can cause compression in a cloud of interstellar gas that ultimately leads to the formation of new stars -- a more ordered state than the gas before compression.

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I believe that in the nature of mankind is a desire to support thoughts, actions and even justify theories by “cooking the numbers” at times. This is not to say scientists are all in some sort of conspiracy…..not at all…but there must be something really huge at stake when so much is done to belittle those who believe in Intelligent Design or Creation.

Those who believe in ID/creationism do so not because of the evidence at hand, but in spite of the evidence at hand.  What's at stake is, quite simply, the scientific method and the pursuit of objective truth.  Until they can provide concrete, repeatable, unequivocal evidence for their position, Creationists deserve to be belittled when they try to claim it's science.

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We all joke about how weathermen get it wrong more than they get it right…..in fact today in my area it was forecast just yesterday that today was an 80% chance of rain……………..this morning it was forecast that today, instead of rain, we would have, and did have, a sunny day. Weather changes…….systems shift…………yet panic is trying to be seeded in the world based upon computer projections of the next 100 years and it is presented as solid fact………… we cannot get consistent reliable weather data for one week much less 100 years.  (This is simply an observation and not an attempt to get into any arguments over warming or anything else for that matter.)

What you're confusing here is the weather with the climate.  Weather cannot be predicted with accuracy 100 years in the future, but the general climate, the average temperature, can be.  It is solid fact, at least as best as we understand climatology today.  Everything we know about carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas and the historical atmosphere -- which we can observe directly through such means as ice cores from the Antarctic -- points to anthropogenic climate change.  This isn't a guess, this is an analysis.

And quite honestly, we need to panic, at least a little.  Do you know what happens to us if the deniers are wrong and we follow their advice?

We die.  As a species.  Humanity goes extinct, because we can't evolve fast enough to adapt to the new environment, or because the food chain collapses.  And nothing out there is going to stop that from happening.  If we wreck this planet, we go with it.

And what's so horrible about the advice of the climate scientists who say we need to back off of fossil fuels, develop renewable and cleaner energy sources, think more about our impact upon this planet?  Do your children not deserve a cleaner planet than the one we have now?

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I guess my general question would be…………why would I be considered a fool for seeing purpose and design in things around me from electrons to planets and moons, plants and animals, water cycle, ocean currents, etc……………….by folks who find it superior to believe that all things evolved from a one celled organism that somehow sparked to life? I say, we believe what you want to believe but also must be willing to live with the consequences.

If you want to say there's a purpose or design, you need to demonstrate it.  You can't just declare it.  And why does there need to be a purpose in the first place?  We aren't the point of the universe, we're just a natural byproduct of it.

Stars died so you can be here.

Why is that not amazing enough, the moreso because it's demonstrably, provably true?
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

 

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