Author Topic: Morality  (Read 25208 times)

Morality
« on: March 06, 2015, 05:35:29 AM »
Just a quick question for atheists out there.  Also, I am confident that many of you have faced this question before, so I expect to hear a lot of replies.   For the atheist, where does one get their morals from?  If something is truly wrong, then why is it truly wrong?  Thanks

Offline Sal1981

Re: Morality
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2015, 05:46:13 AM »
Like I said in the other thread, we get our morals from interacting with other people, such as the Golden Rule of morality being a result of two or more people interacting. No god (or other outside source) needed.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Munch

Re: Morality
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2015, 05:47:35 AM »
I got my morals from being taught it from a very kind, moral, open mind mother, and she got hers from having a father of the same moral standard.
It comes from a combination of common sense, natural empathy, and education. I was also taught the valuable lesson, "treat others as you would be treated, show kindness when it's given, but do not take shit from those who don't".

Offline Atheon

Re: Morality
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2015, 05:49:32 AM »
Cultural upbringing, experiencing consequences of one's own actions, witnessing the consequences of the actions of others, logical reasoning, natural feelings of empathy, and a number of other sources.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 05:51:37 AM by Atheon »
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Re: Morality
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2015, 06:00:52 AM »
Cultural upbringing, experiencing consequences of one's own actions, witnessing the consequences of the actions of others, logical reasoning, natural feelings of empathy, and a number of other sources.

I would like to just take the first thing you mentioned, 'culture upbringing'.  In Nazi Germany, a very large number of people came to believe that killing Jewish people, and anyone else who stood against Germany was a good thing.  Many people were culturally brought up in an environment where the Holocaust was an acceptable moral action.  My argument is that this is false, the Holocaust was still morally wrong despite how many people thought it was right.  Cultural upbringing is not enough to determine what is truly right or wrong.  All atheists have to offer is their own subjective opinion, which is nice, but not sufficient in the eyes of many.

Re: Morality
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2015, 06:03:26 AM »
Like I said in the other thread, we get our morals from interacting with other people, such as the Golden Rule of morality being a result of two or more people interacting. No god (or other outside source) needed.

Right, I see.   We get our morals from interacting with other people.  What do we do when people interact with one another and decide that an event such as the Holocaust, is a morally good event?

Offline Sal1981

Re: Morality
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2015, 06:19:30 AM »
Right, I see.   We get our morals from interacting with other people.  What do we do when people interact with one another and decide that an event such as the Holocaust, is a morally good event?
Conflict would be the only result, I reckon, because it would be against basic moral principles, which is probably why WW2 happened, starting with the Nazis invading Poland.

Have you seen the movie, Conspiracy (2001) aka The Final Solution? It is based on the meeting where the Nazis official discuss what to with the Jewish 'problem'. The movie illustrates in great detail what they thought and how they responded to the Führer's insane policies, concocting The Final Solution.

Anyways, I doubt even they thought it was morally good, just necessary to fulfill a madman's desires.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Re: Morality
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2015, 06:26:59 AM »
Conflict would be the only result, I reckon, because it would be against basic moral principles, which is probably why WW2 happened, starting with the Nazis invading Poland.


Sounds like a movie I should take the time to watch someday.  Just quickly though, I do not understand when you say 'it would be against moral principles'.  You said that morals come from people interacting with one another.   Lets say that we have two groups of people.  Group A consists of people that interact and say that the Holocaust was morally wrong.  Group B consists of people that interact say that the Holocaust was morally right.  Group A and Group B do conflict with one another.  Based upon an atheistic view of the world, how do we determine who is right though?

Offline Sal1981

Re: Morality
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2015, 06:29:23 AM »
Sounds like a movie I should take the time to watch someday.  Just quickly though, I do not understand when you say 'it would be against moral principles'.  You said that morals come from people interacting with one another.   Lets say that we have two groups of people.  Group A consists of people that interact and say that the Holocaust was morally wrong.  Group B consists of people that interact say that the Holocaust was morally right.  Group A and Group B do conflict with one another.  Based upon an atheistic view of the world, how do we determine who is right though?
By the amount of harm done.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Re: Morality
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2015, 06:35:42 AM »
Sounds like a movie I should take the time to watch someday.  Just quickly though, I do not understand when you say 'it would be against moral principles'.  You said that morals come from people interacting with one another.   Lets say that we have two groups of people.  Group A consists of people that interact and say that the Holocaust was morally wrong.  Group B consists of people that interact say that the Holocaust was morally right.  Group A and Group B do conflict with one another.  Based upon an atheistic view of the world, how do we determine who is right though?
Jesus fucking Christ you God damn moron - are you so fucking stupid that you couldn't figure out the right side of the holocaust without your fucking god? THAT is exactly why y'all have zero credibility with us! Prick!
Q for theists; how can there be freewill and miracles? And, how can prayer exist in an environment as regimented as "gods plan"?

"I'm a polyatheist, there are many gods I don't believe in." - Dan Fouts

Re: Morality
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2015, 06:45:49 AM »
are you so fucking stupid that you couldn't figure out the right side of the holocaust without your fucking god? THAT is exactly why y'all have zero credibility with us! Prick!

This is actually a great point.  But I will try to further explain.  It may be clear to most of you that I am not an atheist.  Lets pretend that I was though.  If I was an atheist, I would tell you that I still think the Holocaust was morally wrong.   So it is obvious that I do not need to believe in God to figure out the right side to the Holocaust.   The difference is, however, is that no one would have any logical reason to believe that I am actually RIGHT.  If you are an atheist, and if you believe that the Holocaust was wrong, then you CANNOT argue that the Holocaust was ACTUALLY wrong.  You have no objective standard of morality.  You simply just belief that the Holocaust was wrong.  So I do not need God to know that the holocaust was wrong, but I DO need God to know that the Holocaust was truly and objectively wrong.

Re: Morality
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2015, 06:51:10 AM »
By the amount of harm done.

I see a problem here.  Remember that Group B consists of people who have interacted together and belief that the holocaust is morally right.  For this group of people, they sincerely believe that there is NO harm being done to the Jewish people.  Since the Jewish people, are not really 'people' in their eyes.  However, Group A has interacted together and believes that there IS harm being done to the Jewish people.  We have two groups here.  One says there is harm being done (A), and one says there is no harm being done (B).  Which group then should we take sides on?

Offline Atheon

Re: Morality
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2015, 06:52:41 AM »
I would like to just take the first thing you mentioned, 'culture upbringing'.  In Nazi Germany, a very large number of people came to believe that killing Jewish people, and anyone else who stood against Germany was a good thing.  Many people were culturally brought up in an environment where the Holocaust was an acceptable moral action.
Yup. Sometimes people are instilled with faulty morals.

You asked where people get their morals from. Unfortunately, some get theirs (in part) from immoral people.

Quote
My argument is that this is false, the Holocaust was still morally wrong despite how many people thought it was right.  Cultural upbringing is not enough to determine what is truly right or wrong.  All atheists have to offer is their own subjective opinion, which is nice, but not sufficient in the eyes of many.
That's where reasoning, empathy and other factors come in. The Holocaust is immoral from standpoints of logic and empathy. It doesn't take a god to understand that the Holocaust was wrong.

Where was god anyway, during that horrific time? Didn't lift a finger to stop it. If I were god, I would have prevented it from even happening in the first place. Guess that makes me morally superior to your god (the same god that supposedly ordered the slaughter of the Amalekites).
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 06:54:36 AM by Atheon »
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: Morality
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2015, 06:59:52 AM »
I would like to just take the first thing you mentioned, 'culture upbringing'.  In Nazi Germany, a very large number of people came to believe that killing Jewish people, and anyone else who stood against Germany was a good thing.  Many people were culturally brought up in an environment where the Holocaust was an acceptable moral action.  My argument is that this is false, the Holocaust was still morally wrong despite how many people thought it was right.  Cultural upbringing is not enough to determine what is truly right or wrong.  All atheists have to offer is their own subjective opinion, which is nice, but not sufficient in the eyes of many.

But i'd rather have it my opinion than one laid upon me that i disagree with. I think we can both agree that genocide is wrong. However, if your god ( i assume Allah or yahweh) were to order it, then suddenly it'd be okay. And yahweh or Allah have according to scripture ordered these exact things in The past while condemning it in another passage. This makes it clear that most if not all religions don't even have the objective morality they claim, or it is one created by a sociopath. In which case: i prefer my own standaards and Morales achieved throughout a lifetime of sociability, learning, cultural upbringing, experiencing emotion and feelings, reasoning, working and bondig with people.
It may not be sufficiënt to many. But it's honest and real.
Short reply: deal with it.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Re: Morality
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 07:02:57 AM »
This is actually a great point.  But I will try to further explain.  It may be clear to most of you that I am not an atheist.  Lets pretend that I was though.  If I was an atheist, I would tell you that I still think the Holocaust was morally wrong.   So it is obvious that I do not need to believe in God to figure out the right side to the Holocaust.   The difference is, however, is that no one would have any logical reason to believe that I am actually RIGHT.  If you are an atheist, and if you believe that the Holocaust was wrong, then you CANNOT argue that the Holocaust was ACTUALLY wrong.  You have no objective standard of morality.  You simply just belief that the Holocaust was wrong.  So I do not need God to know that the holocaust was wrong, but I DO need God to know that the Holocaust was truly and objectively wrong.
You're not very good at pretending to be an atheist. You better go back to believing in your pretend god. You know, the one that sat back and watched the holocaust happen right before his eyes and didn't lift a finger. Or did he...........come to think of it, your god, the one I've heard and read about, was most likely on the wrong side of the holocaust. 
Q for theists; how can there be freewill and miracles? And, how can prayer exist in an environment as regimented as "gods plan"?

"I'm a polyatheist, there are many gods I don't believe in." - Dan Fouts