When did Islam become the bad guy?

[Contemporary Protestant]

I still don't think Muslims are the bad guys, despite being 5 when 9/11 happened. So "the war" so to speak may as well have been going on my entire life. If you consider the 9/11 - ISIS to be one string of bad decisions and events.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Thanks for your posts, guys. I find SGOS's and aitm's posts in particular very insightful.
Hijiri, did you see Islam as a negative force at all before then? Did that instance start you thinking about Islam in the way of "This is probably not a good belief system to follow" or more along the lines of "I had my suspicions about Islam being bad, but this solidified it"

The reason I ask, Hijiri. is because even though you are only slightly younger than me, you have been an atheist for your whole life (if I remember correctly) where I only started not identifying as a Christian around 2007 or 2008

I didn't really think about Islam much before that. Thought of it about the same way I think of Christianity, the difference being that I didn't (and still don't) interact with many of its followers.

I will acknowledge that my perspective of Islam being dangerous has as much to do with how western media addresses religion as anything else. Muslim shooters are crazy Islamists, but Christian shooters are lone-wolf psychopaths, etc. It's also probably because Islam is less ubiquitous in my life. Just by virtue of where I've been raised, even as an atheist I still kind of cringe at satirical or inappropriate portrayals of Jesus, but I don't have the same reaction to similar portrayals of Mohammed because I had basically never heard of him until well into Junior High/Highschool. When I'm calm and logical, I'm generally able to notice this bias, but if a story has me riled up I'm pretty much always going to be harder on Islam whether it's justified or not.

[Cocoa Beware]

In my case it had little to do with 9/11 or terrorism; I was willing to give Islam the benefit of the doubt at the time.

Then I learned about the religion, the specifics on who Mohammed actually was and what he did, and how they governed their countries; things changed, and lets just say I now feel as you might expect I would about all of this.

[Valigarmander]

(rough numbers)
100 million by Christians, 2 million by Muslims. Who is the real threat?

That graph is kind of meaningless without methodology or sources. The best I can discern is that you added up the rough number of people killed by white Christians and by Muslims in 20th century wars and political violence. And I can tell you just mean killed by Christians and Muslims regardless of motivation, since 102 million people did not die in religious strife during the last century. Ignoring whether or not religion is the motivation behind an atrocity undermines the purpose of asking whether or not one or another religious belief is more prone to violence; you could just as easily claim that atheists were the cause of 70+ million deaths in the 20th century. I'm tempted to say this is duplicitous.

I also have to call your numbers into question. I don't doubt 100 million people were killed by Christians of European descent (though again your lack of sources make it difficult to verify). But 2 million deaths at the hands of Muslims regardless of motivation is a bit modest. 1.5 million Armenians were killed by the Ottomans. The partition of India resulted in 500,000 deaths. 24,293 Israelis have been killed since the nation's founding. 25,600 French soldiers were killed in the Algerian War of Independence. Half a million people died in the first Sudanese civil war and two million in the second. At least 400,000 were killed in Suharto's purges in Indonesia. Sékou Touré of Guinea killed 50,000. Hissène Habré of Chad killed 40,000. Idi Amin killed up to 500,000. At least a million died during the Nigerian Civil War. The Bengali genocide took 1.25 million lives. The Soviet-Afghan War claimed 1.8 million. 150,000 were killed in the Lebanese Civil War. Saddam Hussein killed at least a quarter million people internally. The Iran-Iraq War killed 700,000 people. Half a million have died in Somalia since the government was overthrown. So out of the 20th century conflicts I listed that's ~5,239,893 dead at Muslim hands alone and another ~5,950,000 dead shared between Muslims and other warring parties.

But again, this is ignoring whether or not religion was a motivation.

[Cocoa Beware]

I think it is like the other enemies to the East we have had; the Middle East has it's time in the limelight, then some other threat comes up and we forget about it for a couple of decades or even a century until another radical group comes into power (either from internal strife or their government over-thrown by the west).

As for Islam itself... it's been awhile since it was considered a direct threat. Obviously 9/11 put it back in the limelight, but before that it had been quite awhile as far as I know... the last truly "anti-Islamic" wars we had were the Crusades, and about 3/4ths of them had far more to do with political agendas than religious.

I suppose you could count Iran as a religious conflict, but I think that is an extreme stretch. If we didn't support a dictator and butcher (because the Brits asked us to protect their oil interests [Anglo-Saxon Oil, now known as BP]) in the country by over-throwing a secular democracy, the Islamic extremists never would have been able to exploit the rage of the people against the Shah. The Ayatollah was there to exploit the situation, he did not create it.

Same for Afghanistan... a secular country turned radical by Islamic extremists that we trained to fight the Soviets. So it's hard to blame Islam for that when it was Western anti-Communist policies that over-threw a secular state and allowed Islamists it trained to take over.



(rough numbers)
100 million by Christians, 2 million by Muslims. Who is the real threat?

Much as I would love to, and I mean I would really love to, I dont agree that religious affiliation ought to be presented first and foremost as a means to count bodies for conflicts such as WW2.

Youre presenting it as if a typical Christian is about 50 times more inherently violent and dangerous then a typical Muslim, which... seems a bit off from what I would have guessed.

Edit: Also, what I forgot to mention is that this kind of graph might be more to the point if it focused on deaths resulting primarily as a result of religious doctrine/divine rationale.

The implication here seems to be that religious leaders were calling the shots and the soldiers were pious in their motivations during such campaigns, which is rather absurd. I mean I would love to blame religion, but it's... not a very rational way of looking at it.

Interestingly enough, once you tally it all up I believe WW2 Japan might be the runaway overall leader. Hirohito was distinct from Hitler and Stalin in that he was seen as divine, dying for the him was considered a great honor and ultimate goal, and they were taught that death is preferable to defeat which made battles quite attritious; Kamikazes obviously had a similar mindset to any other zealot who straps explosives to their body for the purpose of killing people.

[PickelledEggs]

I think it is like the other enemies to the East we have had; the Middle East has it's time in the limelight, then some other threat comes up and we forget about it for a couple of decades or even a century until another radical group comes into power (either from internal strife or their government over-thrown by the west).

As for Islam itself... it's been awhile since it was considered a direct threat. Obviously 9/11 put it back in the limelight, but before that it had been quite awhile as far as I know... the last truly "anti-Islamic" wars we had were the Crusades, and about 3/4ths of them had far more to do with political agendas than religious.

I suppose you could count Iran as a religious conflict, but I think that is an extreme stretch. If we didn't support a dictator and butcher (because the Brits asked us to protect their oil interests [Anglo-Saxon Oil, now known as BP]) in the country by over-throwing a secular democracy, the Islamic extremists never would have been able to exploit the rage of the people against the Shah. The Ayatollah was there to exploit the situation, he did not create it.

Same for Afghanistan... a secular country turned radical by Islamic extremists that we trained to fight the Soviets. So it's hard to blame Islam for that when it was Western anti-Communist policies that over-threw a secular state and allowed Islamists it trained to take over.



(rough numbers)
100 million by Christians, 2 million by Muslims. Who is the real threat?

Do you have an accurate source for this? And something that solidifies the claim that these deaths happened because of the killer's (or the person that ordered the killer's) religious beliefs?

Please source your claim.

[trdsf]

And if I had to pin a second date on when Islam became the "bad guy", I would say 1973, when Saudi Arabia suddenly realized "Hey--this is our oil, maybe we oughta treat it as a real commodity and not just fork it over to our former colonial rulers" and the former colonial rulers and their allies went "Oh, shit!"

Although until the Iranian revolution, the image largely portrayed in the West (or at least in the US) was that of the hyperwealthy Arab playboy sheikh -- religion didn't really enter into it much, but the Arab (and by extension, the Islamic) world came to be portrayed as 'the other', if not actually the enemy, then at least a geopolitical rival.

Also, here's an interesting thought: about 1500 years into Jewish history came the Jewish revolts against Roman rule (the Jewish-Roman Wars and other incidents) .  Around 1500 years into Christian history you had the end of the Crusades and the height of the Inquisition.  And around 1500 years into Islamic history is... right about now.

[PickelledEggs]

And if I had to pin a second date on when Islam became the "bad guy", I would say 1973, when Saudi Arabia suddenly realized "Hey--this is our oil, maybe we oughta treat it as a real commodity and not just fork it over to our former colonial rulers" and the former colonial rulers and their allies went "Oh, shit!"

Although until the Iranian revolution, the image largely portrayed in the West (or at least in the US) was that of the hyperwealthy Arab playboy sheikh -- religion didn't really enter into it much, but the Arab (and by extension, the Islamic) world came to be portrayed as 'the other', if not actually the enemy, then at least a geopolitical rival.

I'm just throwing this out there, but I'm not too sure oil has anything in particular to do with religion/Islam. I think the only think Muslims have to do with that is the middle east has a bigger grouping over in the middle east. Unless you meant something else by that.

Also, here's an interesting thought: about 1500 years into Jewish history came the Jewish revolts against Roman rule (the Jewish-Roman Wars and other incidents) .  Around 1500 years into Christian history you had the end of the Crusades and the height of the Inquisition.  And around 1500 years into Islamic history is... right about now.

Yes. That is very interesting.

[trdsf]

I'm just throwing this out there, but I'm not too sure oil has anything in particular to do with religion/Islam. I think the only think Muslims have to do with that is the middle east has a bigger grouping over in the middle east. Unless you meant something else by that.

The Islamic world/Middle East didn't really impinge itself upon day to day life in the West until the oil embargos of the early 1970s -- there were ongoing conflicts between Arabs and Israelis, but for the most part it didn't have an impact on daily life.

What changed in 1973 was that Arab governments (and particularly in Saudi Arabia, where you really can't separate the government from the religion) started taking action that not only affected the money men in America, but also Joe Sixpack -- it doesn't really have anything to do with Islam per se, but it is about the time that we started seeing the Islamic world being portrayed as 'the other' in the West.

There's a very good chance I'm not making the point I want to make as clearly as I want to make it.  :)

I do remember clearly in (Catholic) grade school when we started learning about other religions and that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all essentially come from the same root, and thinking (loosely translated), "Well, if we're all theological cousins, what the hell is all the fighting about?"

I was probably more than a little naïve at the time.  :D

[Shiranu]

Do you have an accurate source for this? And something that solidifies the claim that these deaths happened because of the killer's (or the person that ordered the killer's) religious beliefs?

Please source your claim.

That isn't saying they killed in Christanities' name, only that they were White Christian killers. To me they seem like the bigger threat.

And I didn't post it for numerical accuracy, I feel the Muslim killings are higher (as Vali posted)... but again, 100 mil (conservatively+) vs 10 mil muslim...sorry, but I find it hard to say that Islam is at all the most imminent threat when clearly there are much bigger factors than religion causing people to kill in such huge numbers.

[pr126]

270 million killed by jihad.


History of Jihad

From 622 AD to the present day, ongoing.

[PickelledEggs]

The Islamic world/Middle East didn't really impinge itself upon day to day life in the West until the oil embargos of the early 1970s -- there were ongoing conflicts between Arabs and Israelis, but for the most part it didn't have an impact on daily life.

What changed in 1973 was that Arab governments (and particularly in Saudi Arabia, where you really can't separate the government from the religion) started taking action that not only affected the money men in America, but also Joe Sixpack -- it doesn't really have anything to do with Islam per se, but it is about the time that we started seeing the Islamic world being portrayed as 'the other' in the West.

There's a very good chance I'm not making the point I want to make as clearly as I want to make it.  :)

I do remember clearly in (Catholic) grade school when we started learning about other religions and that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all essentially come from the same root, and thinking (loosely translated), "Well, if we're all theological cousins, what the hell is all the fighting about?"

I was probably more than a little naïve at the time.  :D

Oh ok. So you're saying a similar thing like aitm was; We never really even knew anything about what Islam was before then, and the stuff with the oil gave us a better peek at what it is.

That isn't saying they killed in Christanities' name, only that they were White Christian killers. To me they seem like the bigger threat.

And I didn't post it for numerical accuracy, I feel the Muslim killings are higher (as Vali posted)... but again, 100 mil (conservatively+) vs 10 mil muslim...sorry, but I find it hard to say that Islam is at all the most imminent threat when clearly there are much bigger factors than religion causing people to kill in such huge numbers.

So if it's not accurate, why post it? right now it's just a fluff post. If you have numbers, show 'em. But quite honestly, I'm not looking for a comparison of "who did worse shit to who... christianity or islam" I'm just trying to see, like the question asks in my OP, "when did Islam become the bad guy" or "when did we start seeing Islam as a negative belief."

So actually, I take that back, shiranu. Even if you can find a reliable source that illustrates your point of bringing up the graph you posted, I don't think it's on topic for this discussion. I'd like to keep this thread on track.

[PickelledEggs]

270 million killed by jihad.


History of Jihad

From 622 AD to the present day, ongoing.

can you find a better set of links? the first one has no cross references and looks like just some blog and the second one is not only incredibly difficult to read from the web formatting, it also looks like an unreliable source.

[pr126]

can you find a better set of links? the first one has no cross references and looks like just some blog and the second one is not only incredibly difficult to read from the web formatting, it also looks like an unreliable source.

http://www.islam-watch.org/HistoryOfJihad/

http://www.politicalislam.com/

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.faithfreedom.org/library-2/




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZaQvgqlp4M



The problem I see is that links provided by me will be rejected as bias, unreliable, because it is inconsistent with the present narrative that Islam is peace, and so forth.

It will be better if each person can search the web on Islamic jihad and make up their own mind.

But the best sources are the Islamic text themselves, such as the Quran, Hadiths, Sirat Rasul Allah, the Sharia (see Reliance of the Traveler).

[PickelledEggs]

http://www.islam-watch.org/HistoryOfJihad/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZaQvgqlp4M

The problem I see is that links provided by me will be rejected as bias, unreliable, because it is inconsistent with the present narrative that Islam is peace, and so forth.

It will be better if each person can search the web on Islamic jihad and make up their own mind.

But the best sources are the Islamic text themselves, such as the Quran, Hadiths, Sirat Rasul Allah, the Sharia (see Reliance of the Traveler).

Not may will be that inquisitive to wade trough all that.
Anyway, each should do his or hers research if they want.
I strongly encourage people to do so.
Ignorance is is inexcusable when all the information is available.

I was just looking for better links is all. A source that sites facts is a source that sites facts and that's all that I'm looking for. Any reliable links that anyone has, or if they have a notable instance in particular like aitm and trdsf provided are welcome.

I'm just trying to piece together information. For me, like I said in the beginning of the thread, I am too young to remember muslims being hated before the world trade center was reduced to rubble, and for me it seemed like hatred against muslims came from either that or sprouted out of nowhere.