When did Islam become the bad guy?

[PickelledEggs]

When the World Trade Center fell, I was in 7th grade... about 13 years old. I was still identifying as a christian, even though I don't think I actually believed anymore and there was only one muslim kid that I knew of. In my town that I just moved to, about half of the people were Jewish and about half were christian, so the concept of Islam was a VERY distant concept.

When I think about my mom's heritage, with her family coming from Turkey at the turn of the century, I remember her telling me that my grandma and grandpa's parents came to the U.S. to escape the Armenian Genocide that was happening there at the time (give or take a few years)...

For people in the forum that are older than me (and ideally were atheist their whole lives)... when did Islam become the bad guy?
-Did it all of a sudden become a concept of interest after 2001 with the terrorist attacks?
-or was there another instance that happened before that that you can remember?
-or has it always been a concept of interest in that way? (as far as you can remember)

As someone that is probably too young to answer the question myself, I'm just curious.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

I've had a hard time not seeing Islam as the bad guy ever since that Danish cartoonist was murdered a few years back.

[pr126]

When did Islam become the bad guy?

In 622 AD when Muhammad created it.

270 million corpses (and counting) thanks to Islam.

[Munch]

The same time any religion does, and when they first create holy wars against other people. It just sometimes takes stepping back and realizing what it really is, and by then its to late to stop it.

[SGOS]

Prior to 9/11, Islam was just something "over there".  I didn't feel any particular threat, but the Mid East, as long as I can remember, has been a violent barbaric place.  Most of the violence there happened there.  That was the impression, but in fact, I think that people in Europe would say the US was not aware of violence exported out of the Mid East only because we remained unaffected until 9/11.

The conservative think tank New American Century (the people who brought us George Bush's Iraq invasion), had for years been advocating an invasion of the Mid East as a means about bringing about stability, I think to insure a steady supply of oil.  They had lobbied President Bush I, President Clinton, and possibly Reagan (I can't remember if Reagan was aware of their plans).  For sure, Bush I and Clinton told them the idea was crazy, possibly Reagan as well.

I'm not sure if New American Century identified Islam as the threat.  It seemed more like their concern was just an unstable Mid East.  Now here's the thing.  While New American Century was known as a think tank of intellectual conservatives, they seemed to lack any intellectual acumen whatsoever.  They were idealists lacking broad perspective, and were more hair-brained than intellectual.  They seemed to know nothing about Mid East culture, and were intellectually ill equipped to understand the consequences of an invasion that many of us weaker brained idiots anticipated.  They seemed to think that American military power could squash the Mid East into submitting to democracy, as if democracy was a default state that people in general would flock to in a power vacuum.

Since the invasion, the Mid East seems to be much more unstable, and exporting violence more of the norm.  Would this have happened without the invasion anyway?  I don't know, but it could be an interesting debate.  From my limited perspective, just talking as an average American, I viewed the Mid East as a violent place with a rich and interesting heritage (before 9/11).  Now, I don't think much about the rich heritage, the glorious past, and it being a one time center of scientific growth.  It's a civilization that seems bent on pissing itself away.

[Solitary]

When did Islam become the bad guy?

In 622 AD when Muhammad created it.

270 million corpses (and counting) thanks to Islam.

A great post! A better question is when did any religion become a good religion when it speaks speculated nonsense. Only the original teachings of Buddha make any sense to me, and it has been corrupted by its various schools and other religions.  Solitary

[Hydra009]

For people in the forum that are older than me (and ideally were atheist their whole lives)... when did Islam become the bad guy?

While there was some interest before (I remember lots of news stories about the Taliban prior to 9/11 and war in Afghanistan), Islamic fundamentalism and Islam in general quickly became a big deal immediately after 9/11.   And I'm not sure if it's just a result the more intense news coverage and the greater interest in Islamic militants, but there's lots of really bad news out of the Middle East where there wasn't nearly as much before.

[Hydra009]

Since the invasion, the Mid East seems to be much more unstable, and exporting violence more of the norm.  Would this have happened without the invasion anyway?  I don't know, but it could be an interesting debate.  From my limited perspective, just talking as an average American, I viewed the Mid East as a violent place with a rich and interesting heritage (before 9/11).  Now, I don't think much about the rich heritage, the glorious past, and it being a one time center of scientific growth.  It's a civilization that seems bent on pissing itself away.

Yeah, I don't view those countries very favorably, either.  Even the relatively prosperous ones, like Kuwait, Qatar, and UAE.  The impression I get is that the whole region is torn between nationalism and Islamism - with Islamism increasingly victorious - with a very little interest in westernization, particularly secularization.  And of course, the end result of these trends is a dismal future.  I'd be more sympathetic if I saw a concerted effort to get things back on track, but I'm not seeing it.  It's falling apart and it's all the U.S.'s fault.  Or all Israel's fault.  Or all Britain's fault.  While foreign intervention clearly hasn't always had favorable results, it's undeniable that much of the problems plaguing the Middle East are homegrown.  But among the many other good policies that the Middle East has abandoned, it seems that personal responsibility is at the top of the list.

[aitm]

For me it was this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

when we first started to get an idea of what Islam was. Although I don't altogether disagree with their tactics so much, but the ensuing coverage showed us the face of a particular lunacy that one was unaccustomed to seeing. A pre courser of things to come from people who truly believed in their religion as opposed to those who believe only at night.

[SGOS]

W

For me it was this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

when we first started to get an idea of what Islam was. Although I don't altogether disagree with their tactics so much, but the ensuing coverage showed us the face of a particular lunacy that one was unaccustomed to seeing. A pre courser of things to come from people who truly believed in their religion as opposed to those who believe only at night.

When the news came over the air about Iran taking those hostages, I was working out in the front yard.  My wife, in her mid 20s then, came out of the house crying, an unusual emotional state for her, as I always thought of her as "hard as nails."  She started telling me about the news.  As she explained about the near rioting crowds protesting the US, it began to dawn on me the effect it was having on her.  I think she was frightened.  Now she was a sensible person, and quite aware that we were not in danger ourselves.

When I went in and watched the news, I could see what was frightening her.  It was a face of humanity that was different from what we usually imagine.  I saw people out of control, a mob that individuals became lost in, and had gone over an edge into as you describe it, a state of lunacy.  Later, some pundits said it was all staged, and not representative of the population of Iran at large.  But good grief, these people genuinely appeared to have plumbed the depths of their insanity, and that's what frightened my wife.

Whether it was real or not, these people wanted others to think it was real, and that in itself is a type of lunacy I can't identify with.  Although, I can't say I experienced fear, myself, I remember trying to understand what we had done to them.  I know we had supported the Shah, because he sold us oil, and I know he was evil,  but today, my reaction is more like, "We can't talk about your concerns unless you stop acting like lunatics." 

I don't know.  Maybe they have to blow up more buildings for a another ten years or so, until they get it out of their system, but I don't think so.  They seemed to have gone over the edge.  But this shouldn't be so hard to understand.  Look at our own fundamentalists who want ultimate control over those they don't approve of.  So I tend to think that lunacy is deep in all of us.  It's a matter of deciding whether to let it take control of us.  I don't relate to people who allow such insanity to rule them.

[kilodelta]

From my active duty experience, we were planning on fighting a war against China and/or North Korea.  After September 11th, it changed to several Islamic countries and North Korea.

[Shiranu]

I think it is like the other enemies to the East we have had; the Middle East has it's time in the limelight, then some other threat comes up and we forget about it for a couple of decades or even a century until another radical group comes into power (either from internal strife or their government over-thrown by the west).

As for Islam itself... it's been awhile since it was considered a direct threat. Obviously 9/11 put it back in the limelight, but before that it had been quite awhile as far as I know... the last truly "anti-Islamic" wars we had were the Crusades, and about 3/4ths of them had far more to do with political agendas than religious.

I suppose you could count Iran as a religious conflict, but I think that is an extreme stretch. If we didn't support a dictator and butcher (because the Brits asked us to protect their oil interests [Anglo-Saxon Oil, now known as BP]) in the country by over-throwing a secular democracy, the Islamic extremists never would have been able to exploit the rage of the people against the Shah. The Ayatollah was there to exploit the situation, he did not create it.

Same for Afghanistan... a secular country turned radical by Islamic extremists that we trained to fight the Soviets. So it's hard to blame Islam for that when it was Western anti-Communist policies that over-threw a secular state and allowed Islamists it trained to take over.



(rough numbers)
100 million by Christians, 2 million by Muslims. Who is the real threat?

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Western religions are always in conflict with each other.  That's part of their fundamental nature.

[trdsf]

Oh, in the Western world, it became the enemy the instant they started controlling territory previously under kings owing fealty to the Pope.  If I had to pin a date on it, it would be around 720CE--the beginning of the Reconquista in Spain.

[PickelledEggs]

Thanks for your posts, guys. I find SGOS's and aitm's posts in particular very insightful.

I've had a hard time not seeing Islam as the bad guy ever since that Danish cartoonist was murdered a few years back.

Hijiri, did you see Islam as a negative force at all before then? Did that instance start you thinking about Islam in the way of "This is probably not a good belief system to follow" or more along the lines of "I had my suspicions about Islam being bad, but this solidified it"

The reason I ask, Hijiri. is because even though you are only slightly younger than me, you have been an atheist for your whole life (if I remember correctly) where I only started not identifying as a Christian around 2007 or 2008