Tripped up by a Christian

[Milleby]

Hey guys, I'm posting this comment because I wanted to ask your opinions on a certain matter. I recently had an argument with a Christian relative of mine and he presented me with a list of abstract concepts and intangible nouns: Meaning, value, purpose, love, laws of logic, morality, laws of mathematics, humor, beauty, justice, information, consciousness... He tripped me up a little. While I can usually hold my own pretty well when arguing against theists, I'm a little uncomfortable when it comes to arguing with them on philosophical grounds - I think the problem is that I really don't have a stance on how these concepts should be defined, what they are exactly, or where they come from. I'd like to form an opinion on this and was wondering if you guys had any suggestions as to where I should start.

Also, how would you guys answer these questions? What are these things exactly and where do they come from? How would you respond to a theist who tries to argue that these things come from their god and are proof of his existence?

[aitm]

God orders the murder of babies and the raping of little girls....yeah so, you can throw anything moral about that god right out the f-in window.

[stromboli]

Don't argue concepts. Just give him stuff like this.

http://www.kyroot.com/

230+ reasons to reject christianity. you can argue concepts all day, because philosophy is murky. Sidetrack the discussion and bypass his arguments.

btw, welcome. Now introduce yourself already, sheesh.

[Solitary]

Damned Strom, two jackpot posts in one day. Thanks! Solitary

[Jmpty]

 "Meaning, value, purpose, love, laws of logic, morality, laws of mathematics, humor, beauty, justice, information, consciousness... "

All human concepts. Next question.

[Munch]

Because I feel like a challange I'll give my take on all these things.

value:
Value is what you make of your life, by your own standards of what makes you happy, not on what makes others happy such as appealing to a higher authority, it comes down to your own personal standard.

purpose:
Like value, purpose is just making the most of your life, if you want to aim high for something to feel a sense of value in life, then your purpose comes down to what you want in it, not what someone else wants of you, you should never follow what someone else wants, and having some worn out old fart telling you its gods purpose what should matter to you, that is on par with saying your life purpose is whatever a cardboard box wants you to be.

love:
Love is combination of human empathy due to our higher developed understanding of others, and that of the natural need for companionship, tied with our sexual needs, if that is the aim. Love doesn't just come down to that factor of course, human being lore more things then any other animal species, be it other people, things, places, ideals and the like. This comes from millions of years of evolution with our higher brain function, and that of our natural desires.

laws of logic:
Theists believe shit like a talking sky daddy, or people who can ride on flying horses to the moon, or talking snakes. Theists will never have grounds to comment on what logic is because they have so little of it. Logic is discovering the rational factors of the world around us, through analytically thinking and observation.

morality:
Theists think you can't have morality without there being a higher being to tell us what is right from wrong. Morality falls into the same concept as love does, because while it is a human concept we made up to categories our human nature, it is also something we have due to our unique evolution and understanding right along with empathy. This has come from our ability to understand other living things because of we understand of ourselves, so our morals are based on that, and lack of morals come from being to out of touch with that developed part of ourselves, we follow the whims of someone elses view of the world, namely something written thousends of years ago before morality had developed to what it is now.

laws of mathematics:
Mathematics is a knowledge based construct of human development, which I might add has been part of human development far, far before any modern day religion even existed.

humor:
Humor comes down to every persons individual limits and knowledge, a child won't find the comedy styling of george carlin, but they would find certain cartoons funny. humor comes from our own education, environment and knowledge of the world we've grown up in, as well as the people we've been around, all cognitive development.

beauty:
Eye of the beholder, it comes from the same concepts of love and empathy in what we find attractive or beautiful. What one person find beautiful might not be the same as the next person, same principle, different people, different lives and dislikes.

justice:
A human form system of rules, limitations and punishments we have made to stop the more baser parts of human nature fucking it up for the rest of the species, unlike in the animal kingdom where things like child murder, cannibalism, theft, rape, brutality and endless more, humankind as long as it has learned to write has learned to create rules, even in the most primitive of tribes social order and rules are set, so, once again, a formation of human understanding of the world around them.

information:
All living, sentient creatures process information, through things like experience and practice, its called, again, cognitive development, being able to process and understand our surroundings because of the brains function to record information and the captivity to store it within the limitations our that sentient creatures cognitive function.

consciousness:
Science explains the workings of this, it is a complex combination of neurons in the brain, the bodies reaction due to those chemical signals, and much of the stuff said previously such as sentience and cognitive development. Our consciousness is simple what comes from being a living organism and its ability to process the world around it, its limits, and its act of survival.


Phew, well thats my take, pretty much everything your relative said they probably claimed was down to god and religion, but just understand they are working their belief system into everything to make it about themselves, things that exist without religion being part of society at all. They just want to try and convert you to their way of thinking.

[kilodelta]

I'd use the dictionary definitions. But, one the theist applies "supeor natural" or "god" to the definitions, you're really back to the core of the arguement which is simple lack of measurable evidence of a defined god.

If he says "morality came from god," that ends the actual topic of morality.

[Munch]

I'd use the dictionary definitions. But, one the theist applies "supeor natural" or "god" to the definitions, you're really back to the core of the arguement which is simple lack of measurable evidence of a defined god.

If he says "morality came from god," that ends the actual topic of morality.

funny enough that reminds me of a video I saw of richard dawkins debating with a muslim on stage to do with faith, and the debate they were swapping back and forth seemed to be fair, talking about nationalism and the concepts of where religion fits into that.. until dawkins brougnt up the part about where the quran claimed Muhammad flew to the moon on a winged horse, and the Muslim guy said yes, he did believe that happened.. it just cut off any sense of rational argument the guy had in a second.

[Solomon Zorn]

It's apples and oranges.

I would say that some of these are not human concepts, but demonstrable facts.

Axioms of logic are all that make possible the discussion of axioms of logic, or anything else.

The numbers we use are only approximations of anything real. They are digital renderings of an analog world. But the laws which are proven by those numbers, are of neither human nor divine origin. They are intrinsic to the nature of all things. 1+1=2 is not an invention. It is a discovery. Because it is unchangeable. Only by semantic games and other distractions the simple minded can be convinced that there might be a time when 1+1=1, or some shit like that.

Information and it's effects are tangible in so many ways, that it is demonstrably more than a concept.

The same can be said for consciousness - not a concept: a fact. Demonstrable by its effects.

The rest of them are human concepts. All of which are subject to opinion. 


I would take Stromboli's  advice though and not let him steer the conversation to philosophy if it's not an area you're comfortable with.