A central question?

[Berati]

I believe that this question is the source of much of the polarization on the subject of Islam.
I don't think by any means that it's the only question but I think that it would be difficult to agree on much concerning Islam if there is disagreement on this so I think this is a good starting point.

This subject has been broached before but I don't think it's been asked quite as specifically as this and I don't recall any in depth discussion  about  it other than to either claim it's true or deny it.

I thought allot about the question itself and I tried to make it as representative as possible of all sides. I rejected "Are all religions the same?" as too straw man since I doubt anyone thinks they are identical. I've listed four options to try and cover all bases.

For this question I think we should limit problematic behavior to violent, oppressive, or intolerant behavior carried out in the name of the religion itself. I don't think we need to cover internal problems like weird rituals, crazy cures and so on even if those can be problematic as well.

Would also love to hear reasons for answers whether scientific or philosophical.

[Sal1981]

I have a varied view. I think people compartmentalize their faith apart from their daily life. It's the True Believersâ,,¢ that scare me and make me agree with you, and Islam has a worrying amount of those.

[Atheon]

Every religion has its fundamentalcases. If the extremists of Christinsanity ever got the upper hand, they would be every bit as dangerous as ISIS.

[Jmpty]

https://beta.cironline.org/reports/islam-judged-more-harshly-than-other-religions-in-terrorist-attacks/

[Solitary]

I think that all religions are not the same, and people may, or may not, use religion as an excuse to do harm or be kind. I think they are all dangerous because they are all based on faith and appeal to authority that is believed can't be wrong. People are just who they are, with, or without religion. But, "insanity in individuals is rare, but in groups it is the norm." Solitary

[aitm]

The problem we face when this discussion comes up is not just the religion, but the culture of that religion as well. You cannot compare today's xian with today's muslim simply due to the amount of education that more xian countries demand upon their people whereas the muslim actively promote the exclusion of women along with many demanding education need only be the complete memorization of the quran. Because of this, the muslim culture is still trying to catch up and without education we cannot have the gradual "loosening of the belt" so to speak that is a natural path when education meets superstition. Todays christanity is watered down to the level of mere humanism albeit with a "guiding hand".

It is 2015 now, comparing what xians did 600 years ago to what muslim are doing today is closer to the truth than to compare todays religions. And with that in mind, yes religions at their core and taken as absolute, everyone that follows it are bound to be problematic towards those of other faiths.

[pr126]

Islam governs every aspect of Muslim life, down to the minutes detail, including the use of the toilet.
Therefore culture cannot be diassociated from the religion.

As for reforming Islam, there are built in safeguards to prevent any tampering.
That is apostasy, punishable by death.


The Terrifying Brilliance of the Islamic Memeplex

• 1. A standardized version of the memeplex is written down, which makes for perfect replication fidelity.
  2. The Koran includes instructions for its own spread.
  3. The memeplex includes instructions for its own preservation, protection, and replication fidelity.
  4. Islam commands its followers to create a government that supports it.
  5. Permission to spread the memeplex by war.
  6. Lands must be conquered.
  7. The memeplex provides for new soldiers by allowing polygamy.
  8. It is a punishable offense to criticize Islam.
  9. You can't leave Islam once you're in.
  10. Islam must be your first allegiance.
  11. The only guarantee of a man getting into heaven is if he dies fighting for Islam.
  12. You must read the Koran in Arabic.
  13. You must pray five times a day.
  14. The prayers involve moving together in time.
  15. A woman is in a thoroughly subordinate position.
  16. The only way a woman can get into heaven for sure is if her husband is happy with her when she dies.
  17. Allah gives Himself permission to edit his own work.
  18. The Koran uses the carrot and stick to reinforce behavior.
  19. It provides a huge and inspiring goal.
  20. Non-Muslims must pay a large tax.
  21. A Muslim is forbidden to make friends with an infidel.
  22. The Koran counsels the use of deceit when dealing with infidels
  23. Islam must always be defended.
  24. The memeplex instructs on the use of pretext to start wars.
  25. The explicit use of double standards.
  26. It is forbidden to kill a Muslim (except for a just cause).
  

A memeplex, well-drilled into someone's head and reinforced by the powerful authority and social proof of his whole society, can cause him to blow himself up just to kill others for the fulfillment of a fantasy goal of ultimately attaining world peace and the triumph of Allah (and a harem of 72 dark-eyed voluptuous beauties devoted to his every wish).

The Islamic memeplex is formidable. It is a force to be reckoned with and we ignore it at our peril. It has already consumed the minds of one and a half billion people, and it is the youngest of the major religions. And it is growing.

[Hydra009]

As for reforming Islam, there are built in safeguards to prevent any tampering.
That is apostasy, punishable by death.

I seem to recall another middle eastern religion with a very similar punishment for apostasy, which also completely stymied reform.  They're all pretty much uniform in their religious beliefs today, particularly when it comes to religion in politics.   I defer to your vast knowledge here, but I'm pretty sure Muslims are like that, too.

[Berati]

Every religion has its fundamentalcases. If the extremists of Christinsanity ever got the upper hand, they would be every bit as dangerous as ISIS.

I agree that they all have fundamentalists but it would seem to me that how the fundamentalists behave is directly connected to the dogma in the religion and the character of the central figure that they are bound to obey. So I can't agree that the end result of the fundamentalism would be the same.

Sam Harris:
"Now Jainism actually is a religion of peace. The core principle of Jainism is non-violence. Gandhi got his non-violence from the Jains. The crazier you get as a Jain, the less we have to worry about you. Jain extremists are paralysed by their pacifism. Jain extremists can't take their eyes off the ground when they walk lest they step on an ant... Needless to say they are vegetarian. So the problem is not religious extremism, because extremism is not a problem if your core beliefs are truly non-violent. The problem isn't fundamentalism. We often hear this said; these are euphemisms... The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam."

[Berati]

The problem we face when this discussion comes up is not just the religion, but the culture of that religion as well.

That's a good point. I think the culture in place at the time of the founding of the religion has much to do with the religion, but if the religion grows beyond a small cult it starts to shape the culture instead.

It is 2015 now, comparing what xians did 600 years ago to what muslim are doing today is closer to the truth than to compare todays religions. And with that in mind, yes religions at their core and taken as absolute, everyone that follows it are bound to be problematic towards those of other faiths.

But the question is if the problems caused will be in the same amount. See the quote in my reply to Atheon from Harris concerning Jainism for example. Jainism is at the opposite end of the scale from Islam.
If it really is a spectrum (as I believe) then it will go from few problems as with Jainism to huge problems as with Islam. I will leave off the question of where christianity fits in for the moment as my purpose with this thread was to establish how many people believe there is a spectrum at all vs those who think it's pretty much all the same.

BTW aitm, I set the poll up so that voters could change their vote (in case the arguments persuade them one way or the other) but I don't see how that is done anywhere. Do you know how this works?

[Jason78]

It is 2015 now

You'd think that religion would be dying a death in the face of all the technology we've got now.   But no.   We've put a man on the moon and landed a probe on a comet. We've got images of deep space when the universe was so young it still had acne.  This is an era where you can go into a hospital and doctors can see inside your head in minute detail.  We're designing stuff with atoms (That we can take fricking images of), and we're at a stage where we're looking at using viruses to modify our genes.   We are on our way to building up whole organs with freaking 3D stemcell printers when only 100 years ago flying machines were just getting off the ground.

Praying for stuff has done fuck all for the last 40,000 years.

How about we give science a go now?

[pr126]

Religions have been created to have power over people.
Giving up religion is giving up that power.
Not going to happen any time soon.

[Berati]

Religions have been created to have power over people.
Giving up religion is giving up that power.
Not going to happen any time soon.

That's one reason but it's not the only reason and even secular ideologies do this.

However, given that it is a big reason, it amazes me how those who will NOT be in power so willingly kneel.

[sasuke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sEcBzxoMB8

[stromboli]

White socks with a purple suit? How gauche.