Problem of evil is weak

[Mike Cl]

Well, I never said it was a perfect definition.  And yes, there's lots of moral gray areas where moral wrongness is difficult to determine.  But all that is pretty irrelevant to what we're discussing, divine wrath causing death (and worse) on such a scale that makes Hitler look like an underachiever.  I may not be able to completely delineate evil, but I can certainly recognize the epitome of it.

Oh, I'm not arguing that the christian god is not evil--it/he would be under any definition one could come up with.  And it can be extremely frustrating to get a christian to see that, or even willing to look at it closely.  But my point is that when a religious person asks --do you believe that evil exist?--they have their own preconceived notion of what that 'evil' is.  But try to get them to explain what, exactly, that is, can be like pulling teeth.  And in order to come to any kind of agreement on the subject, the term has to be defined in a way that is acceptable to each other.  Otherwise they will just be talking past each other and may as well be having the discussion with a mirror.

[Hydra009]

Yeah, the religious conception of evil is infinitely worse, ranging from evil existing as its own supernatural force (Team Evil, lol) to evil as disobeying God (as can be expected from an authoritarian mindset).  It goes without saying that these are purely theoretical constructs with little bearing on humans' daily lives.  The rubber never hits the road, so to speak.

[dtq123]

Interesting.  I suppose you are correct that if you consider killing in a war to be evil, then my relatives and friends, were evil.  So, is all killing evil to you?  Where do you draw the line?

I found the definition Hydra gave quite workable, so I modified it into my morals a bit.

There is no line as far as I can tell. Every thief, rationalizes to make them seem good in their own eyes.

I forgot if Socrates or Plato said this, but I agree that no one does evil on purpose. Rationalization warps the minds of many, causing evil.

[Mike Cl]

I found the definition Hydra gave quite workable, so I modified it into my morals a bit.

There is no line as far as I can tell. Every thief, rationalizes to make them seem good in their own eyes.

I forgot if Socrates or Plato said this, but I agree that no one does evil on purpose. Rationalization warps the minds of many, causing evil.

That looks good on paper.  But you really do not think that killing is ever anything but evil?  Self defense?  Defending your home and/or loved ones? 

I have known people who do 'evil' (or so they called it) and don't hide it--they proclaimed it and said they would do it again.

[dtq123]

That looks good on paper.  But you really do not think that killing is ever anything but evil?  Self defense?  Defending your home and/or loved ones? 

I have known people who do 'evil' (or so they called it) and don't hide it--they proclaimed it and said they would do it again.

Death is something that we should avoid at all costs, or so they say.

As I said, people rationalize. I simply believe harming others is not good, but acceptable at times due to rationalizations.

We lie to ourselves to say that killing is good. In reality we just remove the greater evil.

[Solomon Zorn]

Moral evil is the weaker of the two as an argument. Natural evil is a stronger case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil

There is a whole branch of apologetics that deals with the Problem of Evil. It's called Theodicy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

[Mike Cl]

Death is something that we should avoid at all costs, or so they say.

As I said, people rationalize. I simply believe harming others is not good, but acceptable at times due to rationalizations.

We lie to ourselves to say that killing is good. In reality we just remove the greater evil.

I can't agree.  I think that in some situations killing may be unavoidable.  Let's say a crazy guy breaks into your home, and you have a way of killing this guy.  But you don't, and a loved one dies because of it.  Did you not cause a death by inaction?  In real life these lines can be quite blurry.  Say I have an incurable disease and wish to end my life rather than wait for the 'natural'  (whatever that really means), end.  Is that to be avoided at all costs?  Why? 

While I do not accept killing as acceptable in most situations, I do not say it is 'good'--ever.  But it can be necessary. 

And of course we rationalize--everybody does.  It is inescapable.  We all understand the universe as experienced through our own lens.  And we apply reasons to act as we do.  If we did not, then we would simply find a spot and stay there doing nothing.  You rationalize everything you do--as do I and everybody else.  When one uses 'rationalization' as a way to escape naming the 'ultimate' or a 'universal' evil, then that is simply rationalizing a way of not answering.  And so, I ask again--can you name one 'universal' evil?

[Mike Cl]

Solomon, I agree that natural evil is a compelling argument against 'god'.  As is birth defects, malfunctions of the body or mind--in fact, I'd say that 'nature' itself is a total refutation of all of the major 'gods' of this world.  Nature is based on the taking of life.  One cannot escape it.  In order for me to life, I must kill.  Even if I go full on veggie eater, all the vegs I could eat were alive.  Human life is predicated upon killing and death--that is simply the nature of our world.  Not all life is so.  Plants live off the energy of the sun, or the chemicals of undersea vents.  They don't need to kill.  Why would a sane 'god' create such a situation?  That 'god' could have easily made life based on the energy of the sun.  But it/he didn't.  That, to me, is the ultimate evil.

[Mike Cl]

Solomon--BTW, I've meant to say before--I've been to your site and enjoyed your writings.  I especially enjoyed "The Joke Is On You." and "The Nature of Nature."  Very good!  Thanks.

[Solomon Zorn]

Thanks, Mike.

I think moral evil, as with anything moral, is a judgement call. It's based on a sensibility that is evolved in slightly different ways in different people, then altered by experience in whatever ways that may take. I don't see any way to codify it, or simplify it, that fits every situation.

But the majority of us must have sufficient similarities in our definitions, because for the most part, we function together pretty smoothly. Murdering an innocent in cold blood is pretty universally condemned. And the vast majority of us never actually even witness a murder first hand, let alone are we victims. We can usually walk down the street safely because most people, regardless of their religion, wont rob or kill us.

But the conscience can be desensitized to killing, and the brain can be trained to accept all kinds of things as good and evil.

So, what is evil? It depends on the details. It can't be quantified in any absolute sense.

[Mike Cl]

Thanks, Mike.

I think moral evil, as with anything moral, is a judgement call. It's based on a sensibility that is evolved in slightly different ways in different people, then altered by experience in whatever ways that may take. I don't see any way to codify it, or simplify it, that fits every situation.

But the majority of us must have sufficient similarities in our definitions, because for the most part, we function together pretty smoothly. Murdering an innocent in cold blood is pretty universally condemned. And the vast majority of us never actually even witness a murder first hand, let alone are we victims. We can usually walk down the street safely because most people, regardless of their religion, wont rob or kill us.

But the conscience can be desensitized to killing, and the brain can be trained to accept all kinds of things as good and evil.

So, what is evil? It depends on the details. It can't be quantified in any absolute sense.

You are welcome--keep up your good work.

I agree with you about evil.  It is sort of like porno--hard to define but easy to spot.  In fact, I don't even like the word 'evil'--is it the same as 'bad', or is it a super bad?  What is most important is to try to nail down a definition about it when one talks about it.  As an everyday operating system I sort of mix the 'first do no harm' idea with the Golden Rule. 

[dtq123]

And so, I ask again--can you name one 'universal' evil?

Cheating?

Seriously, I can't think of any other evil that could do the job.

And spare the rebuttal. I know it doesn't work 

[GSOgymrat]

The problem of evil is a problem specific to Christians. Christians believe that events happen for a reason, that God is in control and that God loves people. If God is in control and God loves people then why do children get cancer? Why would a loving God put a child in constant excruciating pain? What purpose could that serve and is His purpose worth the suffering of an innocent child?

"God works in mysterious ways" or "it's God's will" isn't a very satisfying answer when your child is crying out in pain. It must be quite upsetting to believe that God is intentionally making your child suffer, that He could perform a miracle but chooses not to.

[Mike Cl]

The problem of evil is a problem specific for Christians. Christians believe that events happen for a reason, the God is in control and that God loves people. If God is in control and God loves people then why do children get cancer? Why would a loving God put a child in constant excruciating pain? What purpose could that serve and is His purpose worth the suffering of an innocent child?

"God works in mysterious ways" or "it's God's will" isn't a very satisfying answer when your child is crying out in pain. It must be quite upsetting to believe that God is intentionally making your child suffer, that He could perform a miracle but choses not to.

Quite agree.  And that alone should make any reasonable person question any god out there. 

[undercoverbrother]

Some Christians I know, cite "miracles" in their own lives as a reason they believe. They think God intervenes in the world. I find that senseless tragedies, especially what I call anti-miracles, demonstrate pretty well that he does not.

I think this poem makes the point well, albeit sarcastically:

"Impotent Omnipotent"
http://www.solomonzorn.com/impotent-omnipotent.html

"God is only faking non-existence." I'll take that notion to my grave. Thanks.