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Problem of evil is weak

Started by SNP1, December 30, 2014, 07:03:13 PM

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Jason Harvestdancer

The problem of evil is a problem if it is posited that the God under discussion is good.

Assume that the identity of God is Eris.  What does it follow from that?
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

Atheon

Quote from: Solitary on February 13, 2015, 10:32:00 AM
It's a bad argument because it assumes God exists, which assumes the premise is true for the argument.
There are a lot of mathematical proofs that assume something is true, but by going on to show that this assumption leads to a contradiction, it proves it's false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

SGOS

Quote from: Atheon on February 14, 2015, 03:30:26 AM
There are a lot of mathematical proofs that assume something is true, but by going on to show that this assumption leads to a contradiction, it proves it's false.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction

I think this is true for most all logic.  An argument needs a first premise that is assumed to be true.  From that point on, each premise follows without assumptions or the logic fails.  But that first statement is often an assumption.  So prudence is required when beginning the process of logic.  It is a bit of a pitfall.

The problem of evil, not only begins with an assumption (and let's face it, it's a wild assumption for which there is no way it can be tested for validity), but it turns on following assumptions that are also untestable.  For example, one such assumption is that if God is good, he would not allow evil.  Who says this is true?  In addition, it assumes that if God is all powerful and opposes evil, he would stop it.  Who says?  In fact, theists apologize for such contradictions by saying God works in mysterious ways.  He chooses not to stop evil for reasons we cannot understand. 

Positing a God is not a simple "God exists" premise, as atheists assume it is.  The first premise is also loaded with caveats, far too many to include in the opening statement.  In addition, new caveats are created during the process of argumentation when needed.  Normally logic rejects such caveats, but one of the caveats in the original God assumption, is that every contradiction will be cancelled by a manufactured caveat when needed.  In fact, we could introduce a caveat that no caveats are needed, because God does not allow himself to be questioned or verified.  When we posit a God out of thin air, we are playing a theist game, a game with no rules.

Does this violate rules of logic?  Yes, of course it does, but by playing the game, we enter the world of "theist logic", which glorifies doctrine and gibberish as  higher forms of human intelligence.

Actually, the problem of evil, does not enter into my atheism.  I don't believe a god exists, because there is no evidence for one.  It has little to do with unnecessary  contradictions of his nature (whatever said god's nature might be).  Sure, those contradictions are glaring and can be contemplated, but they are unnecessary as far as atheism is concerned.  Why go there?

Theists have posited a god.  The burden of proof ends there.  They must prove it.  It does not fall on atheists to deny it.

Munch

#18
The concept of evil in the bible really is an easy way to show up the pure hypocrisy of Christians.

If you were to ask the average christian what they think of, lets say a report about a mass killing by one insane man, or the killing of dozens of children by chemical warfare, how would they respond? I'd more then assume they would respond like any normal person would, that its evil, that its a hideous act, and even go as far to say the person who committed these acts would be judged by god and burn in hell.

Yet we know full well that god, by Christians own teachings, by their own sacred works, does not give a shit about the safety or well being of children, he will gladly kill countless children just to teach someone a lesson, like the plagues of egypt, or killing the children of sinners.

Heres some choice quotes infact

Quote  And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.  Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.  (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Quote   Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Quote"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all â€" old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

If god were real, he'd be the most evil fucker ever to exist. but he isn't real, the words we're seeing it come from the minds of savages from thousands of years ago with no moral compass and who thought it was ok murder the children of your enemies in cold blood, and then write stories about it as if it came from a voice in their head.

Infact if anyone else wants the reference for this and many other verses showing the evils in the bible, here.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

SGOS

Quote from: Munch on February 14, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
If god were real, he'd be the most evil fucker ever to exist. but he isn't real, the words we're seeing it come from the minds of savages from thousands of years ago with no moral compass and who thought it was ok murder the children of your enemies in cold blood, and then write stories about it as if it came from a voice in their head.

Infact if anyone else wants the reference for this and many other verses showing the evils in the bible, here.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

That seems to be the most plausible explanation for what seems like a book of contradictions, tales of magic, miracles, and fairy tales.  I would leave it at that.  I pondered God's existence for many years, and as I matured and became exposed to more and more knowledge, I began to reject the supernatural and occult.  I'm at a point now where someone or some group is going to have to present their case in a logical format if they want me to buy it.

Munch

Quote from: SGOS on February 14, 2015, 07:40:28 AM
That seems to be the most plausible explanation for what seems like a book of contradictions, tales of magic, miracles, and fairy tales.  I would leave it at that.  I pondered God's existence for many years, and as I matured and became exposed to more and more knowledge, I began to reject the supernatural and occult.  I'm at a point now where someone or some group is going to have to present their case in a logical format if they want me to buy it.

I don't like to think of it like being on a pedestal, but I do have this feeling of how, like yourself, for many years I slowly questioned the existence of magic and fairy tales and gods, going from someone who thought there must be angels and demons because so many say so, to questioning what they said with 'well, if there are angels, why do so many children die of cancer or aids' to year by year questioning everything until arriving where I am today. And now, when I see full grown men and woman, older then me even, still believing in these fairy tale myths of magics and sky daddies, I just feel more elevated in my standing that I questioned everything, while they just stopped questioning and conformed to the myth. 
I feel like how a psychiatrist must feel when hearing the words of mentally unwell people in institutions, only its on mass from thousands.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Solitary

#21
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on February 11, 2015, 06:45:54 PM
I have found that the problem of evil does not disprove the generic "god," but it disproves quite reasonably the Christian "God." I use it in various forms all the time in my poetry, to disprove the notion of divine intervention.

Love your site! Thanks!  Good poetry.  I also got a good laugh with your cartoons. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Solomon Zorn

Thanks, Solitary! I get surprisingly little feedback on it,either positive or negative. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Mike Cl

The crux of the matter revolves around the definition of the word 'evil".  What, exactly, is 'evil'?  Is there an act that is considered by all as evil?  Murder, rape, incest, killing, arson, thievery, stealing, etc, all have elements of 'point of view'.  What is your point of view?  The word must be defined in such a way that both parties to the argument agree is an accurate definition of the word.  I don't know of a universal evil--do you?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Hydra009

#24
Quote from: Mike Cl on February 15, 2015, 12:34:38 PMThe crux of the matter revolves around the definition of the word 'evil".  What, exactly, is 'evil'?
Typically, evil is defined as malicious (deliberate) harm.  This distinguishes it from "natural evil", natural disasters and predation - as well as human accidents, which can be no less injurious but which are not motivated by a conscious desire to harm.  From this definition, it's hard to claim that a God that tortures people for all eternity is not evil.

Solomon Zorn

All the fatal diseases of history.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Mike Cl

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 15, 2015, 01:27:46 PM
Typically, evil is defined as malicious (deliberate) harm.  This distinguishes it from "natural evil", natural disasters and predation - as well as human accidents, which can be no less injurious but which are not motivated by a conscious desire to harm.  From this definition, it's hard to claim that a God that tortures people for all eternity is not evil.
Once again, what is meant by malicious harm?  I daresay that my dad and his friends meant malicious harm to the Germans they fought in WWII.  They would have maliciously killed as many as their trigger finger would have allowed--and with great thought and planning behind it.  I don't think that makes them evil.  Does that even make them murderers?   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

dtq123

#27
Quote from: Mike Cl on February 15, 2015, 04:55:58 PM
Once again, what is meant by malicious harm?  I daresay that my dad and his friends meant malicious harm to the Germans they fought in WWII.  They would have maliciously killed as many as their trigger finger would have allowed--and with great thought and planning behind it.  I don't think that makes them evil.  Does that even make them murderers?

Rationalization can do wonders. I see it as revenge killing, avenged but none the less evil. Your relatives are not "Evil," but they are malevolent in the sense they have committed evil.

There is a possibility of having different evils diverging from this, such as the Christian "Seven Deadly Sins".

Just giving my two cents into the matter.
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Hydra009

#28
Quote from: Mike Cl on February 15, 2015, 04:55:58 PM
Once again, what is meant by malicious harm?  I daresay that my dad and his friends meant malicious harm to the Germans they fought in WWII.  They would have maliciously killed as many as their trigger finger would have allowed--and with great thought and planning behind it.  I don't think that makes them evil.  Does that even make them murderers?
Well, I never said it was a perfect definition.  And yes, there's lots of moral gray areas where moral wrongness is difficult to determine.  But all that is pretty irrelevant to what we're discussing, divine wrath causing death (and worse) on such a scale that makes Hitler look like an underachiever.  I may not be able to completely delineate evil, but I can certainly recognize the epitome of it.

Mike Cl

Quote from: dtq123 on February 15, 2015, 09:51:48 PM
Rationalization can do wonders. I see it as revenge killing, avenged but none the less evil. Your relatives are not "Evil," but they are malevolent in the sense they have committed evil.

There is a possibility of having different evils diverging from this, such as the Christian "Seven Deadly Sins".

Just giving my two cents into the matter.
Interesting.  I suppose you are correct that if you consider killing in a war to be evil, then my relatives and friends, were evil.  So, is all killing evil to you?  Where do you draw the line?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?