The dumbest editorial ever (pro-torture)

Started by Hydra009, December 14, 2014, 03:37:49 PM

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caseagainstfaith

Quote from: aitm on December 14, 2014, 08:03:46 PM
You will never find a report that shows the effectiveness of torture. Think about that.

But you're sure it works.  Uh, that's a complete load of shit dude.  Psychologists actually do study effective means of getting cooperation.  They actually do have an idea of how the human mind works.  Give us something better than this shit.
Please visit my site at http://www.caseagainstfaith.com  featuring critiques of Lee Strobel and other apologetics.

aitm

Quote from: caseagainstfaith on December 17, 2014, 10:00:05 PM
But you're sure it works.  Uh, that's a complete load of shit dude.  Psychologists actually do study effective means of getting cooperation.  They actually do have an idea of how the human mind works.  Give us something better than this shit.

Hey, you guys are welcome to your conclusions. No government is going to tell people that torture works. It would be a horrendous idea, I thought that would be pretty obvious.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Berati

Quote from: aitm on December 17, 2014, 02:40:50 PM
yeah, recent survey has like 55% agreeing with it. I think this is because we as a nation, have come face to face with an enemy that has absolutely no problems with killing or torturing other humans. Their devotion is so at odds with our "self-proclaimed" devotion( that truth be known is nothing more than skin deep) we cannot fathom faith so deep that people are not only willing but eager to die for it. Many of us are too young to even be aware of the horrors of the Japanese in WW 2, or of what certain Germans were willing to do. But even they would be hard pressed to go execute and behead little children. Because of that, I think many realize that there is no current method of negotiating with this type of enemy that works, and therefore, torture is on the table.
I think this is correct and it's why people who would normally oppose torture now put it back on the table.
However, those are emotional reasons and it says nothing about the effectiveness of the practice. As has been pointed out several times now, people are not rational and will continue doing something that doesn't work in spite of evidence as long as it satisfies an emotional need. This is why people still think praying for a sick relative will help with their recovery.
Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: aitm on December 18, 2014, 08:06:13 AM
Hey, you guys are welcome to your conclusions. No government is going to tell people that torture works. It would be a horrendous idea, I thought that would be pretty obvious.
And yet the US admitted that it wanted to use torture... sorry, "enhanced interrogation," on suspected terrorists, even though though it was saying that it doesn't work. How do you think that makes us look?
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aitm

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on December 18, 2014, 11:52:03 AM
How do you think that makes us look?

Honestly, I don't think the rest of the world really gives a shit. Seriously. We think a lot more about what the world thinks about us than what the world really thinks about us. The countries that are far worse than we are, in human "rights violations" are the ones making noise as if anyone really believes anything they say. When we are dealing with people or ideologies that the rest of the world is aghast at, I think they prefer we do the dirty work rather than them, but they will do it as well if they have too.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hydra009

Quote from: aitm on December 18, 2014, 12:19:49 PMHonestly, I don't think the rest of the world really gives a shit.
And you'd be wrong yet again.  The world does care, as it should.  Hell, some of these countries hosted the tortures described in the report.  Of course they care.

And yes, this should also be important to Americans.  In the course of this conflict, we chose to be more like our enemies than our allies.  We chose to use interrogation methods that we've denounced for generations.  This is a black mark that will haunt us for decades.  From here on out, when other people look at the U.S., they'll see torturers and torturer apologists.  And they won't be wrong.  Not entirely.  And if our situation wasn't already rocky enough with our allies, this will definitely give some second (or third) thoughts about their relationship with us.  And obviously, those unfriendly if not hostile to us now have even less reason to have anything to do with us.

This is going to go down in history right next to the Japanese internment camps and the McCarthy era as the biggest moral blunder of our generation.

And you applauded it.

aitm

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 18, 2014, 12:45:45 PM
And you'd be wrong yet again

Oh my, Russia, China, Iran...LOL. Yeah right. A half dozen newspapers...yeah, you really are spot on about what the "world" thinks. Go out into the bush and ask the Aboriginies, or the Congo or the Mongolian highlands.....yeah a hand full of people wrote a few newspaper articles.....oooh I am impressed.




QuoteAnd you applauded it.
No Nancy, I didn't applaud it. Get off your horse your cunt is on the horn and your brain is leaking. Nowhere did I applaud it. I simply do not buy into the whole "it doesn't work because people who don't want people to be tortured say it doesn't work". See? If you read you can understand the point. And no, the "world" doesn't give a shit, the "world" didn't give a shit that JFK was assassinated either. Don't confuse a dozen newspaper articles or a few prime ministers speaking for the "world". The world of 7 plus billion people don't give a fuck that some people tortured people who are out blowing up innocent people. 
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Jason78

Quote from: aitm on December 18, 2014, 02:13:01 PM
The world of 7 plus billion people don't give a fuck that some people tortured people who are out blowing up innocent people. 

Do you really want to live in a country where the authorities get in the habit of torturing people?
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aitm

Quote from: Jason78 on December 18, 2014, 02:47:20 PM
Do you really want to live in a country where the authorities get in the habit of torturing people?

No, do you? However, to be honest, which I have been, I don't consider this "in the habit" and I think that "authorities" is using a pretty big paint brush.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hydra009

#54
Quote from: aitm on December 18, 2014, 02:13:01 PMOh my, Russia, China, Iran...LOL. Yeah right. A half dozen newspapers...yeah, you really are spot on about what the "world" thinks. Go out into the bush and ask the Aboriginies, or the Congo or the Mongolian highlands.....yeah a hand full of people wrote a few newspaper articles.....oooh I am impressed.
Aborigines?



It's more than just Russia, China, and Iran.  Believe it or not that one link wasn't actually the entirety of the international reaction, but a sampling of it.    Before you said that no one carried about illicit US torture, you could have bothered to check that this was the case.  FFS, man, lrn2google.

QuoteNowhere did I applaud it.
Yet you defend the practice, even going so far as to consistently make excuses for it.  If you are against the practice, you have a very strange way of showing it.

GrinningYMIR

Torturhing someone ends up making itself ineffective, a person will admit to anything to make the pain stop
"Human history is a litany of blood shed over differing ideals of rulership and afterlife"<br /><br />Governor of the 32nd Province of the New Lunar Republic. Luna Nobis Custodit

aitm

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 18, 2014, 06:25:16 PM

Yet you defend the practice

Wrong again skippy. ffs man lrn to comprehend

I have commented that I don't think the "practice"  of torture is as "useless" as many believe simply because people who don't want people to be tortured say that torture does not work. I have also said that it is not in the best interest of people to go around saying torture DOES work. Hello?

I also have commented that, indeed torturing people who do not know the answer will indeed result in getting the wrong information. Duh!

I have also commented that most people would indeed resort to the use if they thought it would save a life of a member of their family. Not the member of someone else's family but their family, and I think anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

And still, the world does not give a shit despite you providing whatever dozen or so articles…you can. Hell over half the people of this country don't give a shit and you think the other 7 billion or so really give a fuck? Yeah, USA! USA! USA!

We have been manipulating governments and economies and commerce and ecologies of most the worlds countries for the last 50 years and suddenly you think the world see us as the bastion of morality?

A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

caseagainstfaith

The usual response from people who say that torture doesn't work is to say that people being tortured are inclined to tell the torturer what the person being tortured thinks the torturer wants to hear and not necessarily the truth.  It seems to me that aitm is probably right to a certain degree...  probably there are indeed a certain percentage of people that will give correct information if you torture them.  But, to come up with a net effectiveness score, you need to factor in that other methods might get the same information or even more information.  And you also need to factor in the amount of wrong information you get because the victim is giving the answer they think is wanted.  Thus, while torture may not have zero effectiveness, you might sometimes get some genuine good information, when taken in full context, it is, at least as far as I know, not effective, or at least not the most effective.

After all, aitm says it is in government interest to not admit that torture works. But, seems that lots of our government is doing exactly that, saying it works. If it really works and if they are wanting us to believe it, seems like they should be able to point to something tangible.  They might claim that they can't do that, for national security reasons.  But, I would tend to think that if they did get something really valuable 10 years ago, the risk of releasing that information now is pretty minimal I would think.

Did torture get key information in the finding of Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden or any other high profile target?  As far as I know, the answer is no.
Please visit my site at http://www.caseagainstfaith.com  featuring critiques of Lee Strobel and other apologetics.

caseagainstfaith

Quote from: aitm on December 18, 2014, 08:06:13 AM
Hey, you guys are welcome to your conclusions. No government is going to tell people that torture works. It would be a horrendous idea, I thought that would be pretty obvious.

Except they, um, are doing exactly that, saying it works.  And, government officials are not necessarily the people I would trust to actually know what the fuck they are talking about.  I'd sooner trust psychologists.  Just like I'd sooner trust scientists than government officials on matters of climate change.  In other words, I'm asking you for actual fucking evidence from an actual fucking expert.  Do you have it?  No, seems you don't.  So, until you do, your claims will be treated just like Creationist claims, bullshit.
Please visit my site at http://www.caseagainstfaith.com  featuring critiques of Lee Strobel and other apologetics.

Hydra009

#59
Quote from: aitm on December 18, 2014, 08:02:21 PM
Wrong again skippy. ffs man lrn to comprehend
I comprehend that you said that torture is effective (with the brilliant logic that it wouldn't be practiced otherwise).  I comprehend that you said that we'd all do torture ourselves in your silly ticking bomb scenario (newsflash:  the real world doesn't work like it does on TV), which in addition to straining credulity, actually completely underestimates the conviction of the many people who have vehemently disagreed with you on this.  I comprehend that you cautioned against "degrading" people who have committed torture while being oddly silent about the people who have actually been degraded through torture.  I comprehend you putting forth the argument that "people" see torture as valid because we're fighting bad people.

None of this is very convincing, it reeks of bullshit, and there are logical problems that one could do joint naval exercises through, and comes about as close to justifying torture as one could possibly get without saying it outright.  So yes, I was (and still am) under the impression that you are pro-torture.

QuoteAnd still, the world does not give a shit despite you providing whatever dozen or so articles…you can.
A statement that you spouted off before actually checking if that was the case.  And surprise surprise, it's not.  There has been a pretty substantial international outrage over this.  So...yeah.  Wrong.  Completely and utterly wrong.

QuoteWe have been manipulating governments and economies and commerce and ecologies of most the worlds countries for the last 50 years
So let's not make the situation worse, m'kay?

Quoteand suddenly you think the world see us as the bastion of morality?
No one said that.  No one thinks that.  A flubbed attempt at a strawman argument if I ever saw one.