The dumbest editorial ever (pro-torture)

Started by Hydra009, December 14, 2014, 03:37:49 PM

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Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 09:56:05 AM
This is especially true when the person being tortured does not know the answer. If they DO know the answer it is somewhat believed that it does work, again, otherwise, no one would still be doing it.
You just parroted the apologetics of religion, you realize?

There's a reason you don't find reports that torture works: it doesn't. For fuck's sake, man, there are more government reports that homeopathy works than there are reports that torture works.
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aitm

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on December 15, 2014, 05:11:12 PM


there are more government reports that homeopathy works than there are reports that torture works.

thats is, will be, and shall always be their findings… that is the idea. Thank you.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hakurei Reimu

#32
Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 01:50:29 PM
Everyone against torture will cheer for it if their loved ones are in the hands of the enemy, this is the nature of us. This is why governments and agencies proclaim that torture does not work, so that others will believe it and not use it against us. But rest assured when the chips are down and the clock is ticking every one here will pull a finger nail or slice a testicle if your child is about to be be-headed. And no one has the right to degrade them for it.
If torture doesn't work, it's a waste of time and effort that could have been spent actually saving your child instead of doing something that only feels like you're saving your child. This is just like idiots who pray to God to save their child instead of taking them to the doctor.

Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 06:43:10 PM
thats is, will be, and shall always be their findings… that is the idea. Thank you.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
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aitm

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on December 15, 2014, 07:54:21 PM
If torture doesn't work,
Indeed, if it never worked, I dare say it would never be used.

QuoteWhat the fuck is that supposed to mean?

as I have put forth nearly five times now, it is in the "governments" interest to proclaim loudly that torture does not work so that the enemy thinks it does not work so they do not torture because they think it doesn't work because the government says it does not work…….sheesh.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Poison Tree

Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 03:31:16 PM
You are right, there are indeed people who could care less if their children are beheaded. I will attempt to speak for those who would do anything to prevent their kids from such actions.
Or there could be people who honestly don't think that torture is an efficient method of gathering actionable intelligence and would prefer the use of methods that are more efficient at gathering actionable intelligence.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

aitm

Quote from: Poison Tree on December 15, 2014, 09:05:20 PM
Or there could be people who honestly don't think that torture is an efficient method

yes, there could be.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

stromboli

My brother, who spoke French because of his mission in France, was an interrogator in Vietnam. Because Vietnam was a French colony for many years, most Vietnamese spoke it. He was trained in interrogation techniques, which he explained to me were very effective. I gather the CIA interrogators were untrained in both interrogation and torture, and made it up as they went.

This is incredibly sad. We have become the monster we have spoken and fought against for generations. The only way to restore national dignity is to own up to it and punish the guilty. I know they won't be, but seeing Cheney thrown into a jail cell would be a wonderful moment for me.

aitm

Quote from: stromboli on December 15, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
My brother, who spoke French because of his mission in France, was an interrogator in Vietnam. Because Vietnam was a French colony for many years, most Vietnamese spoke it. He was trained in interrogation techniques, which he explained to me were very effective. I gather the CIA interrogators were untrained in both interrogation and torture, and made it up as they went.

This is incredibly sad. We have become the monster we have spoken and fought against for generations. The only way to restore national dignity is to own up to it and punish the guilty. I know they won't be, but seeing Cheney thrown into a jail cell would be a wonderful moment for me.
Oh stop it strom, the government says that torture doesn't work, that's why they don't do it. Sheesh.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Shiranu

"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 08:04:56 PM
Indeed, if it never worked, I dare say it would never be used.
Yes, just like homeopathy would never be used if it didn't work. Oh, wait. People do use homeophathy, even though it doesn't work.
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Hydra009

#40
What I really don't get about this whole thing is how anyone could have a system of ethics where murder is wrong, rape is wrong, abusing an animal is wrong, but torturing a human being is a-ok.  It just boggles my mind.  You'd think avowed Christians with crucifixes dangling around their necks would be solidly against the practice.  But apparently when one party decides that it's all for it, it drags half the populace with it (or was it the other way around?)

aitm

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 17, 2014, 01:18:43 PM
What I really don't get about this whole thing is how anyone could have a system of ethics where murder is wrong, rape is wrong, abusing an animal is wrong, but torturing a human being is a-ok.  It just boggles my mind.  You'd think avowed Christians with crucifixes dangling around their necks would be solidly against the practice.  But apparently when one party decides that it's all for it, it drags half the populace with it (or was it the other way around?)

yeah, recent survey has like 55% agreeing with it. I think this is because we as a nation, have come face to face with an enemy that has absolutely no problems with killing or torturing other humans. Their devotion is so at odds with our "self-proclaimed" devotion( that truth be known is nothing more than skin deep) we cannot fathom faith so deep that people are not only willing but eager to die for it. Many of us are too young to even be aware of the horrors of the Japanese in WW 2, or of what certain Germans were willing to do. But even they would be hard pressed to go execute and behead little children. Because of that, I think many realize that there is no current method of negotiating with this type of enemy that works, and therefore, torture is on the table.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hydra009

Quote from: aitm on December 17, 2014, 02:40:50 PMBecause of that, I think many realize that there is no current method of negotiating with this type of enemy that works, and therefore, torture is on the table.
Right.  Our enemy is monstrous and because of that, our tactics should be a bit rougher and our collective morality should be adjusted accordingly.  Looks like fool-proof logic to me.  Maybe if we were in conflict with more compassionate people, we could forgoe say, the Abu Ghraib stuff.  But we're not, so we should just do whatever we feel like doing.

Agramon

#43
Relevant article

Notably - "Throughout that period, Soufan says he never felt the need for harsh interrogation methods. He argues that techniques like waterboarding don't work. 'When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them,' he says. 'That means the information you're getting is useless.' But his main objection to the techniques, Soufan says, is moral. To use violence against detainees, he says, 'is [al-Qaeda's] way, not the American way.'"

Also note where the techniques came from (at least in this scenario) - "Soufan says that view was shared by the CIA officials who worked with him on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah and others. But then the harsh methods were introduced, he says, by CIA contractors and Soufan protested. He was backed by his bosses at the FBI and pulled out of the interrogations."
"And, tricked by our own early dream
And need of solace, we grew self-deceived,
Our making soon our maker did we deem,
And what we had imagined we believed."
- Thomas Hardy

aitm

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 17, 2014, 03:26:19 PM
Right.  Our enemy is monstrous and because of that, our tactics should be a bit rougher and our collective morality should be adjusted accordingly.  Looks like fool-proof logic to me.  Maybe if we were in conflict with more compassionate people, we could forgoe say, the Abu Ghraib stuff.  But we're not, so we should just do whatever we feel like doing.

I disagree with your conclusion but I understand you rational.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust