The dumbest editorial ever (pro-torture)

Started by Hydra009, December 14, 2014, 03:37:49 PM

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Hydra009

Quote from: aitm on December 14, 2014, 07:40:54 PM
I don't believe this to be true. There are reasons that people believe this, and I think the reason people believe this, is that the people who know better want people to believe this.
edit: the reason torture is still used over thousands of years is that it works. Otherwise…..really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_interrogation

Hydra009

Quote from: Shiranu on December 15, 2014, 12:10:22 AM
I would just like to add that if it works or doesn't really matter anyways if we want to pretend we are the "good" guys.
Also, if we care even the slightest about making/keeping allies.

Mr.Obvious

Torture is bad, m'kay?
You shouldn't do torture.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

aitm

Again, it is a governments desire to make other people believe that torture does not work. People who do not have information will give whatever is needed to stop the torture. But if it was that ineffective, if would never even enter the scenario... hence, we still have our government using it despite the "overwhelming" evidence it does not? Yeah, right.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Shiranu

Quotehence, we still have our government using it despite the "overwhelming" evidence it does not?

...you realize you could say that about a good 65% of government actions, ya?
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

SGOS

From what I have read, the claim that torture does not work is heavily weighted with mostly anecdotal testimony.  I haven't seen actual hard data.  This doesn't surprise me.  Given that torture is considered vile and reprehensible in Western society, I would expect lots of anecdotal information about torture's ineffectiveness.  It's a given psychological dynamic in the Western psyche.  I'm skeptical about opinion based on anecdote.

For me, the argument against torture is that it is reprehensible, not that it is ineffective.  In my mind, I'm quite sure it is reprehensible.  But I'm lacking enough information to be convinced that it doesn't work.  However, the moral argument is adequate enough, at least for me.

Solitary

Torture doesn't work, because a person tortured will say whatever he can to stop being tortured, true or not.
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

aitm

Quote from: Solitary on December 15, 2014, 09:52:16 AM
Torture doesn't work, because a person tortured will say whatever he can to stop being tortured, true or not.
This is especially true when the person being tortured does not know the answer. If they DO know the answer it is somewhat believed that it does work, again, otherwise, no one would still be doing it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

SGOS

Quote from: Solitary on December 15, 2014, 09:52:16 AM
Torture doesn't work, because a person tortured will say whatever he can to stop being tortured, true or not.
But that claim admits the person being tortured will supply both true and false information.  But a perception of the claim is that the information is always false.  Well at least that it is all worthless, which is not what the claim actually states. 

Berati

Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 07:25:10 AM
Again, it is a governments desire to make other people believe that torture does not work.
You have very divided government and their desires don't align. Government is not monolithic. There are plenty on either side of this issue and many are making pro torture statements.

QuoteBut if it was that ineffective, if would never even enter the scenario... hence, we still have our government using it despite the "overwhelming" evidence it does not? Yeah, right.
You're assuming people are rational. I've spent more than one post showing why "rational choice theory" in economics is flawed. People still use this all the time to push laissez faire capitalism in spite of all the evidence that shows the failure of laissez faire capitalism.
Basically, people often believe what feels good instead of what’s true and persist in their beliefs and behavior in spite of evidence. The desire to not have govt telling you what to do feels as good as revenge often does. That people still continue either behavior in spite of evidence is not a surprise.
Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Berati

Quote from: SGOS on December 15, 2014, 08:10:16 AM
For me, the argument against torture is that it is reprehensible, not that it is ineffective.  In my mind, I'm quite sure it is reprehensible.  But I'm lacking enough information to be convinced that it doesn't work.  However, the moral argument is adequate enough, at least for me.

It isn’t 100% black and white to me. It depends on what you mean by torture and what any supposed evidence would be. Of course, there are some lines I would never cross but here is just one example:
For instance if there was conclusive evidence that sleep deprivation led to information that saved thousands of lives by thwarting the release of poison gas, I would have to rethink my position based on the moral implications alone.
However, the evidence simply doesn’t point to this at all. (see links below)

While I don’t doubt that some information has been developed through the use of torture, when it is studied it appears pretty clear that that bad outweighs the good by a wide margin.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/torture-it-didnt-work-then-it-doesnt-work-now-9923288.html
http://www.medicaldaily.com/torture-doesnt-work-government-report-shows-psychological-suffering-doesnt-lead-truthtelling-273840
Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

aitm

Everyone against torture will cheer for it if their loved ones are in the hands of the enemy, this is the nature of us. This is why governments and agencies proclaim that torture does not work, so that others will believe it and not use it against us. But rest assured when the chips are down and the clock is ticking every one here will pull a finger nail or slice a testicle if your child is about to be be-headed. And no one has the right to degrade them for it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Poison Tree

Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 01:50:29 PM
Everyone against torture will cheer for it if their loved ones are in the hands of the enemy, this is the nature of us. This is why governments and agencies proclaim that torture does not work, so that others will believe it and not use it against us. But rest assured when the chips are down and the clock is ticking every one here will pull a finger nail or slice a testicle if your child is about to be be-headed. And no one has the right to degrade them for it.
Nice to know you are an expert as to the inner working of our brains. Tell me, o prophet, what career would I be happiest and most successful in?


Seriously, though, before we can determine if torture works we first have to determine the goal of the torturers.
For example, during the Korean war North Korea was able to coerce American airmen into admitting to chemical and biological attacks. Did that torture work? If the goal was to provide intelligence that would enhance the defense of North Korea, then talk of phantom WMD attacks did not accomplish that goal. If, however, the goal was to score PR points and embarrass the US then the torture was successful.

Or let us take a different example. There is a history of police coercing confessions--even using water boarding to get confessions. If we accept that such practices will get both true and false confessions, does torture in that situation work? It depends on the goal of the police force: If the police are actually interested in protecting the public then they should be unwilling to accept false confessions because such a confession will not only not protect the public by catching an actual criminal but it will in fact harm the public by unjustly incarcerating someone--harming that individual and his/her family. If the police's goal is to remove criminals from the street then they may be more willing to accept some false confessions in exchange for quick true confessions. If the police are only interested in closing cases as quickly as possible than any confession--true or false--accomplishes that goal and the use of torture is effective for them in exactly the degree to which the suspect confesses (or dies during torture).

If the goal of CIA torture was to provide actionable intelligence to prevent terrorist attacks then any false information will not accomplish that goal by both being worthless in itself and potentially exposing weaknesses elsewhere if acted upon--like in The Guns of Navarone. There are still situations where it can be useful, such as confirming information you've gotten from conventional sources or vice versa. But we should also realize that torture burns the bridge to conventional interrogation. you can always ratchet things up, not down. Like in hostage situations: If you start negotiations you can always storm the place latter but if you storm the place first--successfully or not--you can't very well negotiate after.  If conventional interrogation creates less intelligence but much less bad intelligence then the actionable intelligence gathered may actually be greater than from a large volume of intelligence with a large degree of bad intelligence gathered by torture.
There is also the risk that torture will cause a [permanent] break/mental collapse rendering the suspect completely useless as a source of intelligence--but still perfectly useful as a PR prop.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

aitm

Quote from: Poison Tree on December 15, 2014, 02:36:26 PM
Nice to know you are an expert as to the inner working of our brains. 

You are right, there are indeed people who could care less if their children are beheaded. I will attempt to speak for those who would do anything to prevent their kids from such actions.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Jason78

Quote from: aitm on December 15, 2014, 01:50:29 PM
Everyone against torture will cheer for it if their loved ones are in the hands of the enemy, this is the nature of us. This is why governments and agencies proclaim that torture does not work, so that others will believe it and not use it against us. But rest assured when the chips are down and the clock is ticking every one here will pull a finger nail or slice a testicle if your child is about to be be-headed. And no one has the right to degrade them for it.

No atheist in a foxhole eh?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato