All of out actions are selfish

Started by dtq123, December 11, 2014, 06:46:35 PM

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Atheon

Damn it... I should have kept that 500 note that the merchant accidentally gave me instead of 100 for my change...
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Thumpalumpacus

What of people who sacrifice their lives for strangers?
<insert witty aphorism here>

stromboli

Since you can't resurrect the dead, it is impossible to know their motives. But altruism has been shown to be a herd instinct, wherein one member will work for the benefit of others. As an old man I would sacrifice my life if others lived, but my motive is I might as well go out a hero than wither and fade away. Just me.

Jmpty

I disagree with this entirely. There are many examples in nature where creatures sacrifice their lives for others.
???  ??

dtq123

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on December 11, 2014, 08:04:26 PM
I'm such a selfish jerk. I just coughed up some phlegm.. I'll feel good about myself and offer it to someone here, but only for the most selfish reasons.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 11, 2014, 10:36:34 PM
I don't fart because I enjoy it or want to fart. It just sort of happens. Sometimes I fart without even knowing it.

How is farting without knowing it selfish?


Let be clear up a "misunderstanding" (Some people understand what I meant, but I don't believe I was clear enough)

By actions, I meant choices.


Quote from: Jmpty on December 12, 2014, 11:19:55 AM
I disagree with this entirely. There are many examples in nature where creatures sacrifice their lives for others.

One phrase; Natural Selection.

Animals act on a more primitive basis, some know they will die soon, so they help the group instead of being a burden.

Animal mothers allow themselves to get hurt so they can protect their young to spread their genetics.

Males of some species know they will get eaten if they mate, but do it so they have the chance to reproduce.

Does this help? Please give other examples as they appear.

Thanks for all the replies, and have a good time  :azn:
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Jmpty

"Animals act on a more primitive basis, some know they will die soon, so they help the group instead of being a burden."

Um, which particular animal told you this nonsense?
???  ??

dtq123

#21
Quote from: Jmpty on December 12, 2014, 06:30:25 PM
"Animals act on a more primitive basis, some know they will die soon, so they help the group instead of being a burden."

Um, which particular animal told you this nonsense?

Alright, assumption on my part, but this still means that they know they are injured due to nerve endings being fired.
So while in pain, it helps the group because it is in physical pain. You could call this altruism and I would get why, but the animal could kill another rivals to eat them and gain health back instead of helping them, but this would mean that the organism is violent and becomes a less desirable mate for the opposite sex. So it becomes passive and "Hopes" (I'm not sure animals do that but yeah, it hopes) it gets better so it can find another mate.

Example;
I get hit by a car and I'm crippled.
I could take money from my brother's bank account since we look alike and all I need to do is steal his card.
If I do this and my mate finds out, I will look "Bad" and be rejected.
If I do nothing, I would just wither away and die.
So I want to be as much of a resource to my brother as I can since he is my kin. And it makes me look good, helping me find a mate, a core instinct.

I believe this is how some wolf packs work.
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Jmpty

A bee stings to protect the hive, and dies.
Ants build a bridge across a stream with their bodies, the ones on the bottom drown.
A soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his fire team.
People die trying to help others every day. Some people do it for a living, but some just risk their lives for complete strangers.
???  ??

dtq123

Quote from: Jmpty on December 12, 2014, 11:22:03 PM
A bee stings to protect the hive, and dies.
Ants build a bridge across a stream with their bodies, the ones on the bottom drown.
A soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his fire team.
People die trying to help others every day. Some people do it for a living, but some just risk their lives for complete strangers.

The first two examples are a result of instinct.
The last two are a result of satisfying our own moral judgment.
I thought you almost had me there though. Good job bro :p
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Aletheia

#24
Quote from: Jmpty on December 12, 2014, 11:22:03 PM
A bee stings to protect the hive, and dies.
Ants build a bridge across a stream with their bodies, the ones on the bottom drown.
A soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his fire team.
People die trying to help others every day. Some people do it for a living, but some just risk their lives for complete strangers.

Bees and ants are all daughters of the queen, so they die to ensure the reproductive success of the queen who also happens to carry similar genes. It is selfish on a genetic level.

A solider saves his team because human beings have an instinct to protect the clan, which when those instincts were instilled way back in our prehistory, clans typically comprised of family members who shared similar genes. Since a soldier reaches a level of bonding that is similar to the same bonding a person normally has with family, the soldier's instincts are kicked in. In short, it is for genetic reasons, which have been fooled.

As for people dying while helping complete strangers, most likely this behavior will be derived from similar instincts as in the case of the solider. People are more likely to help strangers who remind them of someone they know. Once again, selfish reasons on a genetic level, but much like before, instincts have been fooled.

Altruism often serves selfish reasons, but that selfishness isn't always on the individual level - often times it will be from the perspective of the genes.
Quote from: Jakenessif you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
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the_antithesis


dtq123

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 13, 2014, 07:07:41 AM
Ahem, "sweeping generalization".

Could you please explain your position? My whole argument is "All of our choices are selfish," and thus my entire argument is a generalization.
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

agnostic

yeah, I kind of agree but then again when you take most parents for example who would risk their lives for their children , how is that selfish?. I mean sure you can use the "right thing to do" example but still I wouldn't call that selfish.

Mike Cl

Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 11, 2014, 10:36:34 PM
I don't fart because I enjoy it or want to fart. It just sort of happens. Sometimes I fart without even knowing it.

How is farting without knowing it selfish?
Pickles, it isn't selfish.  It is simply something you cannot control.  If you cannot control something, it is neither selfish or unselfish--it just is.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?