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De Broglie–Bohm theory

Started by Sal1981, December 11, 2014, 03:30:10 PM

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Sal1981

Saw this on Facebook the other day; a link to a Wired article that basically shows that recent experiments in fluid dynamics, with an oil droplet bouncing on a resonating fluid, moves in an irregular manner - a pilot wave - which is completely analogous to QM.

QuoteThe experiments involve an oil droplet that bounces along the surface of a liquid. The droplet gently sloshes the liquid with every bounce. At the same time, ripples from past bounces affect its course. The droplet’s interaction with its own ripples, which form what’s known as a pilot wave, causes it to exhibit behaviors previously thought to be peculiar to elementary particles â€" including behaviors seen as evidence that these particles are spread through space like waves, without any specific location, until they are measured.

Source: http://www.wired.com/2014/06/the-new-quantum-reality/

This experiment has given new life to De Brogile-Bohm theory, because it display the exact same properties which used to be thought unique to elementary particle interactions (i.e. QM).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie%E2%80%93Bohm_theory


This could, IMO, be the start of revision in physics on the same scale when the geocentric model of the world with Earth as its center with its epicircles and whatnot was dismissed in favour of the heliocentric model.

I think this is an appropriate analogy, because in the geocentric model, although convoluted, the math described the motion of the planets and the Sun to a high precision. It wasn't until much later that the heliocentric model won over the geocentric model.

Also, looks like Albert Einstein was right again, "God doesn't play with dice".

stromboli

Good post. Unfortunately I am totally unqualified to give a coherent response..... :think:

Hakurei Reimu

I don't find this impressive. After all, QM has much the same formulation of wave mechanics, hence the wave-particle duality. That fluids display many of the same properties is not at all surprising.
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josephpalazzo

Quote from: Sal1981 on December 11, 2014, 03:30:10 PM


Also, looks like Albert Einstein was right again, "God doesn't play with dice".

It's a nice theory, even though I don't know much about it. Howver I do know about QM. I don't know how the De Brogile-Bohm theory deals with these concepts but Lorentz invariance, the renormalization group, gauge symmetry and spontaneous symmetry breaking are all concepts needed in QFT to explain the Standard Model, and we know it does that exteremely well. How does the De Brogile-Bohm theory do in explaining  the Standard Model is anyone's guess.

Baruch

See the post in Physics-Cosmology nearby regarding the most recent variety of theoretical research.  One approach takes QM as just a fancy system of post-classical statistics.  I tend to gravitate toward that one today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_probability

Do basically there one can completely discount "hidden variables" and accept that QM is completely statistical.  Therefore per Complementarity ... classical physics is an "averaged over" version of statistics ... and that even in ordinary physics, G-d plays dice all the time.

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Táadoo ánít’iní.
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Don't do that.

josephpalazzo

The problem with these theories is that they are concerned with the interpretation of QM, read the Copenhagen Interpretation (CI), particularly with its wave collapse notion. Strike down the CI, and QM is fine. I understand lots of people are spending their time on what is now called foundational quantum mechanics, but personally, I think it's a waste of time. In my own blog, I have dispelled many of these false notions, but I reckon that there is a lot of work to do in that department, especially the greatest offender was Einstein and his EPR paper, and there are legions carrying his torch.

Baruch

Well is philosophy of science; operationalism or realism?  I think operationalism ... I don't care if electrons exist, as long as I can treat the equations pragmatically as if they exist.  So is the "shut up and just compute" the correct approach?  I think that operationalism is nearly the same, but with some reason behind it.  Certainly lots of folks are some kind of realist ... not necessarily the same as Einstein.  So I am not a realist either.  Anti-realism is where I am at.  You may like ...

http://www.nature.com/news/quantum-spookiness-passes-toughest-test-yet-1.18255
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
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Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2015, 03:24:51 PM
Well is philosophy of science; operationalism or realism?  I think operationalism ... I don't care if electrons exist, as long as I can treat the equations pragmatically as if they exist.  So is the "shut up and just compute" the correct approach?  I think that operationalism is nearly the same, but with some reason behind it.  Certainly lots of folks are some kind of realist ... not necessarily the same as Einstein.  So I am not a realist either.  Anti-realism is where I am at.  You may like ...

http://www.nature.com/news/quantum-spookiness-passes-toughest-test-yet-1.18255

That's exactly the kind of article I find nauseating. There are so many errors, I don't know where to start. But here's a shot at some of these errors.

Take the following quote: "In quantum mechanics, objects can be in multiple states simultaneously: for example, an atom can be in two places, or spin in opposite directions, at once. Measuring an object forces it to snap into a well-defined state." There is nothing in QM that one can use to make that claim, yet I see this kind of stuff over and over. What the wave function contains are the possible states, not that objects can exist in multiple states simultaneously. (See my recent blog:  http://soi.blogspot.ca/2015/09/superposition-and-quantum-states.html). Then it predictably states that Einstein disagreed. Yes, he did, but not for the right reasons: Einstein's solution was hidden parameters, and QM went subsequently to be developed without the fabulous "hidden variables". And then the article goes on with Bell who showed that Einstein was wrong, and from there wrongly concludes that there is a spooky action at a distance after all. :-(

The whole mess is further compounded that there is a "communication loophole", one I surmise was fabricated in a few confused minds. There isn't a loophole as entanglement is based on a conservation law, and therefore has nothing to do with how far atoms are separated: they will keep their entanglement as long as none of them undergoes any kind of interaction. Of course, the further they are apart, the greater the risk of an interaction, and therefore if you keep them close, they will stay entangled, which these people verified but think they've made a major discovery!!! Yikes.


aitm

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 05:19:17 PM
That's exactly the kind of article I find nauseating. There are so many errors, I don't know where to start. But here's a shot at some of these errors.

Take the following quote: "In quantum mechanics, objects can be in multiple states simultaneously: for example, an atom can be in two places, or spin in opposite directions, at once. Measuring an object forces it to snap into a well-defined state." There is nothing in QM that one can use to make that claim, yet I see this kind of stuff over and over. What the wave function contains are the possible states, not that objects can exist in multiple states simultaneously. (See my recent blog:  http://soi.blogspot.ca/2015/09/superposition-and-quantum-states.html). Then it predictably states that Einstein disagreed. Yes, he did, but not for the right reasons: Einstein's solution was hidden parameters, and QM went subsequently to be developed without the fabulous "hidden variables". And then the article goes on with Bell who showed that Einstein was wrong, and from there wrongly concludes that there is a spooky action at a distance after all. :-(

The whole mess is further compounded that there is a "communication loophole", one I surmise was fabricated in a few confused minds. There isn't a loophole as entanglement is based on a conservation law, and therefore has nothing to do with how far atoms are separated: they will keep their entanglement as long as none of them undergoes any kind of interaction. Of course, the further they are apart, the greater the risk of an interaction, and therefore if you keep them close, they will stay entangled, which these people verified but think they've made a major discovery!!! Yikes.



I forgot how much I enjoy reading your posts…..[spoiler]though I still have no fucking idea what you said..[/spoiler]
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josephpalazzo

Quote from: aitm on September 04, 2015, 08:45:16 PM
I forgot how much I enjoy reading your posts…..

Thanks


Quote[spoiler]though I still have no fucking idea what you said..[/spoiler]

Ask any question, that's what I'm here for. For the record: I've taught this stuff for many years. I'm retired now, but still enjoy the subject and will gladly help anyone who's interested in such matter.