"I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."

Started by Aletheia, December 04, 2014, 03:54:27 AM

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Munch

Sweetheart, I think you stopped processing cognitive functionality years ago, there's nothing anyone can help you with here in terms of education anymore.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

stromboli

https://danielmiessler.com/writing/bible_fiction/

QuoteThe similarities between the stories and characters in the Bible and those from previous mythologies are both undeniable and well-documented. It is only due to extreme the extreme religious bias that pervades our world today that people rarely get exposed to this information.

In this short piece I’ll attempt to show blatant similarities with regard to two of the most important Biblical narratives: the Genesis story and the character of Jesus Christ.

The Book of Genesis’s Flood Story Mirrors The Epic Of Gilgamesh From Hundreds Of Years Earlier

Here are a number of elements that both Gilgamesh and the flood story in Genesis share:

God decided to send a worldwide flood. This would drown men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.
God knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.
God ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew), and the hero initially complained about the assignment to build the boat.
The arc would have many compartments, a single door, be sealed with pitch and would house one of every animal species.
A great rain covered the land with water.
The arc landed on a mountain in the Middle East.
The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.
The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.
The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.
Keep in mind the level of detail in these similarities. It’s not a matter of just a flood, but specific details: three birds sent out, resisting the call to build the arc, and a single man being chosen by God to build the arc. Then consider that the first story (Gilgamesh) came from Babylon â€" hundreds of years before the Bible was even written.

Do you honestly think, based on the similarities above, that those who wrote the Genesis story had not heard the Gilgamesh story? And if they had heard it, and they were simply rehashing an old, very popular tale, what does that say about the Bible?

Jesus’s Story Is An Obvious Rehashing Of Numerous Previous Characters

Perhaps even more compelling is the story of Christ himself. As it turns out it’s not even remotely original. It is instead nothing more than a collection of bits and pieces from dozens of other stories that came long before. Here are some examples.

Asklepios healed the sick, raised the dead, and was known as the savior and redeemer.
Hercules was born of a divine father and mortal mother and was known as the savior of the world. Prophets foretold his birth and claimed he would be a king, which started a search by a leader who wanted to kill him. He walked on water and told his mother, “Don’t cry, I’m going to heaven.” when he died. As he passed he said, “It is finished.“
Dionysus was literally the “Son of God”, was born of a virgin mother, and was commonly depicted riding a donkey. He healed the sick and turned water to wine. He was killed but was resurrected and became immortal. His greatest accomplishment was his own death, which delivers humanity itself.
Osiris did the same things. He was born of a virgin, was considered the first true king of the people, and when he died he rose from the grave and went to heaven.
Osiris’s son, Horus, was known as the “light of the world”, “The good shepherd”, and “the lamb”. He was also referred to as, “The way, the truth, and the life.” His symbol was a cross.
Mithra‘s birthday was celebrated on the 25th of December, his birth was witnessed by local shepherds who brought him gifts, had 12 disciples, and when he was done on earth he had a final meal before going up to heaven. On judgment day he’ll return to pass judgment on the living and the dead. The good will go to heaven, and the evil will die in a giant fire. His holiday is on Sunday (he’s the Sun God). His followers called themselves “brothers”, and their leaders “fathers”. They had baptism and a meal ritual where symbolic flesh and blood were eaten. Heaven was in the sky, and hell was below with demons and sinners.
Krishna had a miraculous conception that wise men were able to come to because they were guided by a star. After he was born an area ruler tried to have him found and killed. His parents were warned by a divine messenger, however, and they escaped and was met by shepherds. The boy grew up to be the mediator between God and man.
Buddha‘s mother was told by an angel that she’d give birth to a holy child destined to be a savior. As a child he teaches the priests in his temple about religion while his parents look for him. He starts his religious career at roughly 30 years of age and is said to have spoken to 12 disciples on his deathbed. One of the disciples is his favorite, and another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around speaking in parables and metaphors. He called himself “the son of man” and was referred to as, “prophet”, “master”, and “Lord”. He healed the sick, cured the blind and deaf, and he walked on water. One of his disciples tried to walk on water as well but sunk because his faith wasn’t strong enough.
Apollonius of Tyana (a contemporary of Jesus) performed countless miracles (healing sick and crippled, restored sight, casted out demons, etc.) His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. He knew scripture really well as a child. He was crucified, rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to prove his power before going to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as, “The Son of God”.
The problem, of course, is that these previous narratives existed hundreds to thousands of years before Jesus did.


Logic Sets In

Many are familiar with Occam’s Razor, which states that, all things being equal, one should not seek complex explanations when more simple ones are available. No one disputes that these other stories predate the Judeo-Christian Bible, so we really only have two options:

The religious explanation is that while the other stories were very much the same as those in the Bible, they are all false. But when they occur in the Bible (despite it being much the same content), this time the stories are true. One explanation of the resemblances to the earlier myths is that Satan created them to lead people astray from the true Messiah that would come much later. So essentially, an ultra-powerful and evil being (Created by God) influenced humanity to create deceptive stories â€" thousands of years before the real version â€" so that people wouldn’t believe the real thing when they saw it.
The alternative explanation is that the nature of storytelling during the period was such that central themes propagated through time. This combined with the natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories, and the fact that the Bible stories came after the other ones, explains the similarities to previous myths. And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) â€" they are also false in the Bible. In short, the Bible is simply another iteration of the same themes that came long before it.

trdsf

Quote from: winterland78 on March 05, 2015, 09:03:59 PM
Hello. But on the contrary, homosexuality has been condemned by multiple people of different religions alike. By the responses here, it seems like the atheist religion believes that homosexuality is not a choice. I respect your beliefs and religious opinions, but enough biblical research and scientific evidence has been gathered to indeed conclude that homosexuality is a conscious choice, stemming from people who also drink, commit robbery, and abuse others. It's just the facts.

Number of flaws here.

One: Atheism is not a religion, unless you count not collecting stamps as a hobby or abstinence as a sexual position.

Two: 'Belief' has nothing to to with thinking that homosexuality isn't a choice.  The preponderance of genetic research shows a strong genetic component.

Three: If you're equating homosexuality with alcoholism and criminal behavior, we are going to have a very serious problem right now.  You need to either demonstrate that I am an alcoholic and a thief and a physical abuser, or you need to apologize to me right now for making that comparison.  Otherwise, well, since you're religious, and Catholic priests are religious, I can just assume that you're a pedophile.  It's the same thing, isn't it?
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Munch

He got given the Harley hammer now, so he won't be making anymore comparisons he thinks go together
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Aletheia

*Sweeps away the dirt*

Who left the door open? Anything and anybody can just show up and dirty up the place.
Quote from: Jakenessif you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

trdsf

Quote from: Munch on March 06, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
He got given the Harley hammer now, so he won't be making anymore comparisons he thinks go together
Yeah, I didn't spot that until after I'd posted.  Shame.  I'd've liked to see his explanation about how he doesn't need to apologize for following the lord's word... or the voices in his head, same thing.  And then I would've taken great pleasure in referring to him as "pedoland7&8" with a clear conscience.  I mean, he had been warned what the consequence of drawing unwarranted conclusions would be...

But I think I can live with the disappointment of him not being here anymore.  :)
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Aletheia

All too often theists, Christians especially, want to focus on the issue of homosexuality being a choice. If it was a choice, then Christians could feel righteous in knowing that homosexuals are going to hell. However, if homosexuality is not a choice, then they are left with cognitive dissonance of an all-loving god that specifically created homosexuals that never had a chance to make it to heaven.

It's just shitty that they'd rather change the facts about an entire group of people rather than accept the possibility that their god is not a purely good god.
Quote from: Jakenessif you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Mermaid

It's also shitty that people try to control the lives of other people when it has nothing to do with them.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Solitary

How is it that all Christians know what God wants? Do they ever read a bible other than in bible class? Why do they believe the bible is Gods word when it is so childish and silly, worse than any nursery story for little children? Idiots!  :wall: :butt: :kidra: :biggrin2: Solitary 
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

SGOS

Quote from: Solitary on March 14, 2015, 07:08:00 PM
How is it that all Christians know what God wants? Do they ever read a bible other than in bible class? Why do they believe the bible is Gods word when it is so childish and silly, worse than any nursery story for little children? Idiots!  :wall: :butt: :kidra: :biggrin2: Solitary 
The big thing in the fundamentalist movement these days is the thing about having a personal relationship with Jesus, so you don't really have to read the Bible.  You've got this personal relationship, so you simply ask Jesus (God) what he wants.  Then you sit back and imagine a suitable answer, and there you are.  You know what God wants.

Near the end of my days in Alcoholics Anonymous, we were on the topic of friends at a meeting, and this one guy said his best friend was Jesus.  Why Jesus, and not God?  I've always wondered, but I digress.  I imagine he and Jesus with their arms on each other's shoulder going for a beer (or getting a coffee since it was in AA).  You sit there and ask Jesus what he wants.  I mean that's like right from the horse's mouth.  How you gonna argue with that?

It might be totally imaginary, but it is a colorful description of their personal relationship, and somehow they believe it.  How do they do it?  No matter how hard I try, I can't make myself believe that I'm having daily sex with Zooey Deschanel, or even the lady across the street.  If I could actually believe it, I'd be pleased.  I might even go door to door and tell people about it.

Another guy once said to me, "I walk with Jesus.  Do you walk with Jesus?"  WTF??

Catholics just go to church and the Priest speaks for God, but Protestants have their own personal relationship.  They cut out the middle man and imagine they talk to Jesus.  Hell, priests don't even make that claim.

Munch

Jesus exists as nothing more then a channel for Christians to claim he is a mortal avatar of god, so his words are gods words spoken on the same level as humans.
Problem with their logic in this (same logic that has a talking snake) is this means jesus is either nothing but a puppet for god to control, or that he has no individuality outside of god. The assumption seems to be the apple not falling far from the tree, which has always been bullshit, when you think about those horror stories of children who were abused by their psychotic parents, yet grew up to be normal people, like the children of the wests.

Anyway, whatever bullshit contradictions are in the bible, all it really comes down to are a bunch of sheep being instructed how to live and what to believe by someone who holds it up and focuses on portions of the bible, expanding upon them in great detail to make those passages seem like the be all and end all, while missing out many other passages they don't want to use for fear of it showing their real agenda.

The biggest question though I've always, Always wondered, if given this fact about how religions work, why do so many mainstream ones have this homophobic stance, be is all the forms of christianity, Islam, Mormon, Scientology, all of them have homophobic followings behind them. Its not like these people aren't just naturally bigoted, it must be god telling them to be, right?
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

kilodelta

Trevor Moore has it right.



Note: Last Trevor Moore video of the evening.
Faith: pretending to know things you don't know

Ace101

"Homosexuality is a choice" is just rhetoric meant to obfuscate the discussions.

trdsf

Quote from: Ace101 on March 31, 2015, 03:28:28 AM
"Homosexuality is a choice" is just rhetoric meant to obfuscate the discussions.
Do you have an actual point to make?  Or are you just going to randomly throw a phrase in here?  And what discussion is it obfuscating?

It is clearly not empty language, it is the central lie used by anti-gay bigots to justify their bigotry, since apparently they've twigged onto the fact that if there's a strong genetic/biological component to it, they can't really justify publicly hating gays for being gay -- it'd be like hating an African-American for being black.

It's also the lie they use to justify their discredited 'conversion therapy' -- if it's genetic/biological, conversion therapy is worse than discredited, it's completely meaningless.

By the bye, 'rhetoric' is the study of persuasive communication.  It is often -- and, I think, mistakenly -- used to denote something as empty verbiage, but that is not actually what rhetoric is.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Solitary

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.