Author Topic: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."  (Read 104793 times)

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2015, 07:51:27 PM »
Well.. For starters i have not seen an animal society where they communicate and say "Ugly fag". Since they don't ask each if they think homosexuality is right or wrong. Its simply biological. Whether one can be homophobic as in a way of reaction. Who knows. Mostly my conclusion is that animals are simply biological in terms of that. It just doesn't seem they go around thinking about that stuff.  Therefor its biological, and not a choice. Pure instincts.
Yes we are. We are not the only species that evolved, but we have evolved from a common ancestor with the chimps. Although they started getting better at using tools, it wasn't until homo sapiens came along that things really started to go on the bright side. Creating a language, spreading ideas, build. We wherent limited by what we could do on instincts. Now we could simply think because we simply are that evolved.

So sharing information and ideas just became natural. So creating rules and laws, society norms became a thing. And that's where we are today.

How do you know what animals say to each other? Dolphins obviously have a lot to say given their vocalizations are extremely diverse. Furthermore, a dolphin's brain is on par with the size and complexity of a human brain. The great apes have a combination of hand and body gestures along with vocalizations. Even dogs are able to convey complex emotions and ideas to other dogs. For instance, when a dog lays on its back and wiggles about, they are usually trying to transfer the scent of something they found interesting to their body. From there, they will share the smell with another dog.

Homo Sapiens was not the only species of human capable of speech or spreading ideas. Even neanderthal (not part of homo sapiens) had clans, rules, and culture. There were possible two other species capable of language given their brain size and similar anatomy to ours which allows for speech.

Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2015, 07:57:35 PM »
So you're saying you understand what they are talking about. Or do you assume based on their body language and signals they give each other. Is that the same as being clear about ideas as we can share in our world. If that's the case why haven't they built a civilization, why don't they create a language that they can read and speak? What stops them from that?

So how do you know what they think? Unless you actually can just assume from what they do, but not actually gather what they actually think personally. Which means they can't actually influence each other on that scale. Its very flimsy, in the same way you can understand our early ancestors which looked very much like apes. But they wheren't on the developed scale of thinking and spreading ideas through language and tablets, which evolved into what we are. We are the supreme case of that.

Of course its all what we want to be in life. In case of the life of a human. Depending on what type of society you live in.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 07:59:45 PM by Peter23 »

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2015, 08:02:30 PM »
Yes i did. I said humans can spread ideas to each other. Hense why its a choice. But its also biological in terms of what you are attracted too. So its in a way both.

Spreading ideas does not imply choice.

Let's test your theory. Make the choice today to alter your sexuality. If you can make such a choice, then choosing to change it again shouldn't be a problem.

However, to really put it to the test, change your sexuality and keep it that way for 6 months. Go dating, have sex (if possible) and be honest with yourself with how you felt.

If the choice is genuine, then you shouldn't have inhibitions and should greatly enjoy sex and the company of your lover as you do in your current orientation.

If it's not genuine, then you will have doubts, feel very uncomfortable, and long for those you found attractive in your previous orientation.

Animals arent like that, since they cant ask if they think its right or wrong, they are purely on instincts. Which is why its all biological.

How do you know? Even scientists aren't 100% sure.
Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2015, 08:04:18 PM »
But why didn't i just bang a guy i felt like. Why did i struggle to do it?...
Thats where ideas come from. But its also a biological case. With animals its just instincts and biology, nothing more :)

Either way, thats the conclusion simply based on facts.
Quote
How do you know? Even scientists aren't 100% sure.
How do you know they aren't homophobic? How do you know what they really think? But they simply can't influence others because they are not developed mentally as we are. Books, litterature. Thats the outcome of something brilliant invention called written and spoken language that people share and understand.

And thats why animals are considered biological. We can because ideas influence us.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 08:08:38 PM by Peter23 »

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2015, 08:14:36 PM »
So you're saying you understand what they are talking about. Or do you assume based on their body language and signals they give each other. Is that the same as being clear about ideas as we can share in our world. If that's the case why haven't they built a civilization, why don't they create a language that they can read and speak? What stops them from that?

How do you figure out what people are saying to each other in a language you do not understand? You watch their body language and and signals they give to each other.

Why haven't primitive human societies built a civilization. Why haven't these primitive human societies created a written language? Around the world are isolated tribes of humans who have not followed the status quo while most of the world has advanced around them.

Apparently, being human does not guarantee big, advanced civilizations.

Who's to say that some species of animals do not speak to one another already?

So how do you know what they think? Unless you actually can just assume from what they do, but not actually gather what they actually think personally. Which means they can't actually influence each other on that scale. Its very flimsy, in the same way you can understand our early ancestors which looked very much like apes. But they wheren't on the developed scale of thinking and spreading ideas through language and tablets, which evolved into what we are. We are the supreme case of that.

Of course its all what we want to be in life. In case of the life of a human. Depending on what type of society you live in.

One human being cannot be sure what exactly another human being is thinking. We cannot experience their thoughts.

Orcas influence each other rather well. Beaching in order to reach seals has spread like wildfire. Furthermore, many cetaceans have what the great apes lack -- the ability to directly teach. Orcas even have different "languages" and have difficulty understanding orcas who speak one of the other languages. The knowledge a matriarch elephant has influences the migrations of elephants. This information is not instinctive and has influenced elephants for countless millennia.

You make the assumption that all evolved creatures will behave as humans do. However, the only intellectual creatures you've ever known has been humans. How other animals use their intellect will be unique to their given environment. Ours was shaped by a constantly changing environment.
Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2015, 08:15:44 PM »


As for saying homosexuals are a weak link in evolution. In a way they sorta are. I mean sure it was ok at sometime. But... in the case of homo sapiens. The thinking humans, there has to be a period where they thought to themself. Wow how unnatural of them. Having sex for fun, instead of bringing forth a generation.

????? Having sex for fun????????  I can't speak for you (hell, you have a hard time speaking for you), but I have always had sex for fun.  A daughter resulted from one of those fun times, but that was not the goal of sex for me.  It is much more complex than just having fun.  At one point pregnancy for my would have been life threatening.  So I got fixed--hence, procreation was impossible.  Did that stop my fun????  Hardly--increased it. And I do realize that to many religious that is a sin (whatever the fuck that is).  So, how the hell is a homosexual having sex for fun 'unnatural'???!!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2015, 08:18:46 PM »
Yeah. Body language work that way. But just because i beat a gay in the street without understanding what he says. I can't spread those ideas of homophobia without using a spoken language or written language that people can understand. I mean maybe if i killed and beat more... But what does that mean??? It means i am beating a bunch of people. They don't know why i'm doing this.

So how can i spread homophobia without language that people can understand?

I wonder.... :) Language creates information? Information creates ideas. Perhaps, perhaps.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2015, 08:21:16 PM »
But why didn't i just bang a guy i felt like. Why did i struggle to do it?...
Thats where ideas come from. But its also a biological case. With animals its just instincts and biology, nothing more :)


Nice way to dodge. Ideas do not infer choice.

A heterosexual individual could listen to ideas that mention how great homosexual sex is. This does not mean a heterosexual would derive pleasure from homosexual sex. Yes, their body might derive some pleasure, but their mind simply won't be in it. Nothing can change their innate sexuality. Gay sex would lack the appeal that straight sex does. They would long for a significant other of the opposite sex and feel that a person of the same sex could never be more than a friend.

However, if you'd like to put your theory to the test, change your sexual orientation for 6 months and let us know how it goes.

Until then, anything else you say really won't prove your case. Experimentation is pretty much the only way to prove that sexual orientation is a choice.
Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2015, 08:23:04 PM »
Yeah. Body language work that way. But just because i beat a gay in the street without understanding what he says. I can't spread those ideas of homophobia without using a spoken language or written language that people can understand. I mean maybe if i killed and beat more... But what does that mean??? It means i am beating a bunch of people. They don't know why i'm doing this.

So how can i spread homophobia without language that people can understand?

I wonder.... :) Language creates information? Information creates ideas. Perhaps, perhaps.

Straw man.

I was referring to how do you infer what other species of animals might be "saying" to one another.

Please try to stay on topic.
Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Offline Solitary

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2015, 08:23:53 PM »
We are just a higher form of animal and have instincts also. Ever see a person go up to a baby and say, "coochy coo?" What is an instinct actually? It's just a word to describe behavior we don't understand. There are many ways to communicate without words.  :fU: See what I mean? If homosexuality is a choice, then so is heterosexuality, do the bigots ever think about that? Is that why they get so upset about it, because they get a tickle seeing the same sex they are attracted to? Sometimes they protest too much.  :eek: :biggrin2: Solitary :butt: OK, just calm down now, it is a female butt.  :lol: :lol:
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #100 on: February 21, 2015, 08:27:52 PM »
Well i think the fact is this. If we where animals back then, then it would all be biological, life would be very different. So now we have ideas we can spread naturally to one another. And choice and biology sorta goes hand in hand in terms of orientation, even though it might go against your own nature that doesn't mean it doesn't have some sort of effect. It depends if you believe it or not. ^^

But it also have a huge deal to do with the abrahamic religions in the case of homosexuality. Its the most successful religions afterall

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #101 on: February 21, 2015, 08:43:33 PM »
Well i think the fact is this. If we where animals back then, then it would all be biological, life would be very different. So now we have ideas we can spread naturally to one another. And choice and biology sorta goes hand in hand in terms of orientation, even though it might go against your own nature that doesn't mean it doesn't have some sort of effect. It depends if you believe it or not. ^^

But it also have a huge deal to do with the abrahamic religions in the case of homosexuality. Its the most successful religions afterall
What the hell are you trying to say????  Could you translate what you said above?? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline trdsf

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #102 on: February 21, 2015, 08:51:42 PM »
I said humans can spread ideas to each other. Hense why its a choice.

Your direct implication here is that you can decide (or be convinced) to be gay.

So I ask you this: what argument do I need to present to convince you to be gay?  If there is no argument with any chance of success, then in what way is it even partially a choice?

I will grant only that humans can decide, for the most part, how to react to their inner biological nature.  I will not grant that they can alter their inner biological nature.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #103 on: February 21, 2015, 08:54:33 PM »
Well i think the fact is this. If we where animals back then, then it would all be biological, life would be very different. So now we have ideas we can spread naturally to one another. And choice and biology sorta goes hand in hand in terms of orientation, even though it might go against your own nature that doesn't mean it doesn't have some sort of effect. It depends if you believe it or not. ^^

But it also have a huge deal to do with the abrahamic religions in the case of homosexuality. Its the most successful religions afterall

TRANSLATION:

Because we have ideas we are different from animals and therefore can make a choice about our sexuality because ideas obviously trump instincts.

However this is based on whether you believe this or not.

Homosexuality is a huge deal due to the most successful religions - the abrahamic religions.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 08:59:20 PM by Aletheia »
Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Offline Solitary

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #104 on: February 21, 2015, 08:57:12 PM »
With a name like Peter. I can understand his dilemma.  :winkle:
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.