Author Topic: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."  (Read 104835 times)

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2015, 06:23:50 PM »
Animals uses body language or sounds to communicate in that case. But its not the same as having a coherent language to spread actual ideas to people.

Bees are capable of conveying what type of flower, how far away it is from the hive, and in what direction to the rest of the hive by nothing more than a complicated dance. That is a coherent language that spreads actual ideas. In this case, with great precision.

It has been speculated that dolphins can replay the sounds from their echolation to other dolphins who would receive in their mind's eye an image of what the dolphin is referring to. If they play the entire series of sound, the recipient of the message would receive what is essentially a "video" image. This is a coherent language capable of spreading ideas.

Humans use body language, sounds, and props to create a coherent language and to spread ideas. Because other animals use different techniques does not downplay the fact that ideas are spread from one individual to another.

Animals chooses what to do with their own life, but they dont bother with nonsensical stuff like "oh who are you having sex with". 'cause ideas as a whole doesn't exist. They just don't care about it. Just as it was with us when we were primates. I mean maybe we were a tiny bit more smarter. But in general. Its sorta mostly the closest thing i can compare us to the animals on a mental state. But then homo sapiens came. Boom.

Animals in close-knit groups care very deeply who is having sex with who. The alpha pair of wolves make it their business to prevent other members of the pack from breeding. Baboons, bonobos, chimpanzees, and gorillas will have sex to gain status while others will disrupt mating to prevent increased status or to safeguard a mate they consider theirs. Even meerkats will chase away lone males who wish to mate with any of the females in the group.

For these animals, the concept of an unwanted or unauthorized breeding is a very well formed idea.

And thats why we use a computer now.

We are using computers now because our evolution increased our brain size, gave us a varied diet, increased our impulse control, gave us a way to effectively communicate, and most importantly gave us a way to genuinely teach one another rather than rely solely on imitation.


As for saying homosexuals are a weak link in evolution. In a way they sorta are. I mean sure it was ok at sometime. But... in the case of homo sapiens. The thinking humans, there has to be a period where they thought to themself. Wow how unnatural of them. Having sex for fun, instead of bringing forth a generation.

Yes, I'm sure the Romans and Greeks were shocked to see people having sex for fun instead of bringing forth a generation. :eyeroll:
Many of the Native American tribes had considered homosexuals to be unique and of spiritual importance. Mankind has went through a series of accepting gays and condemning them depending on the culture at a given time.

Evolution keeps traits that are not harmful or that have benefits (no matter how miniscule). Keeping a certain percentage of the population that is gay is helpful to the group. In an enormous society, nonbreeding gay couples can offer homes to countless displaced children via adoption. Once again, gays are helping breeding couples... just as they always have. A weak link is not the same as an evolutionary trait that isn't overtly profound. Left handed individuals are beneficial to a group when they comprise 10% of the population. Too much or too little upsets the benefits of having lefties around.

Thats how the weak link is spotted. They saw that as a nuisance and as a result. Convinced people that it was nothing to collect on. And so the homo hate was borned.

Homosexual hate was born most likely in societies that didn't have a strong presence of homosexuals. The unfamiliarity of these societies activated another of mankind's instincts - distrust of strangers. From there, ideas were influenced and the hate and distrust of homosexuals was galvanized into law, religion, and culture.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 06:32:25 PM by Aletheia »
Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2015, 06:32:54 PM »
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Animals in close-knit groups care very deeply who is having sex with who. The alpha pair of wolves make it their business to prevent other members of the pack from breeding. Baboons, bonobos, chimpanzees, and gorillas will have sex to gain status while others will disrupt mating to prevent increased status or to safeguard a mate they consider theirs. Even meerkats will chase away lone males who wish to mate with any of the females in the group.

For these animals, the concept of an unwanted or unauthorized breeding is a very well formed idea.
Indeed, incest is bad in that case. Animals are pretty clever when it comes to this. Its purely instinct related. If one breeds with the same kind they basically know the results so they can be pushed away as a way of saying "NO!". But that doesn't mean they actually can share ideas as a thought. Its purely instincts that know something bad will happen if i let this stuff happen. In the same way that some know what food to eat and not to eat.
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We are using computers now because our evolution increased our brain size, gave us a varied diet, increased our impulse control, gave us a way to effectively communicate, and most importantly gave us a way to genuinely teach one another rather than rely solely on imitation.
Precisely. Intellect is what makes us to what we are. Aswell as creating laws and rules in a society, in written tablets, language which cultures have strived upon.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 06:35:52 PM by Peter23 »

Offline Mermaid

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2015, 06:35:41 PM »
Indeed, incest is bad in that case. Animals are pretty clever when it comes to this. Its purely instinct related. If one breeds with the same kind they basically know the results so they can be pushed away as a way of saying "NO!". But that doesn't mean they actually can share ideas as a thought. Its purely instincts that know something bad will happen if i let this stuff happen. In the same way that some know what food to eat and not to eat.
But how do you know how animals think? I would disagree that they are not able to reason and emote, and that they operate purely instinct.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2015, 06:38:43 PM »
That's what i mean. We can't know what animals think because we can't communicate with them in that matter. You can't go to a fox and ask "Do you think homosexuality is ok?" they will just sniff around and that person will just be like, why did i bother.
Its just not in their interest to ask or answer. They communicate in a different way than us, not on spoken language or ideas. But purely on instincts and body language.

So for us it is natural. Hense to why homo sapiens is the name for "wise man"

Offline Moloth

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2015, 06:54:37 PM »
Peter23, none of that explains why 'its both biological and a choice'...

In what way does a person 'choose' to be gay? yes, humans are more self-aware, have tool and language use and can form abstract thought... but what does that have to do with what a person is innately sexually attracted to?

And, keep in mind, homosexuality is rife in the animal kingdom, too... its not like its unnatural or that only humans do it.
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-

http://www.Moloth.com

Offline Mermaid

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2015, 07:01:16 PM »
That's what i mean. We can't know what animals think because we can't communicate with them in that matter. You can't go to a fox and ask "Do you think homosexuality is ok?" they will just sniff around and that person will just be like, why did i bother.
Its just not in their interest to ask or answer. They communicate in a different way than us, not on spoken language or ideas. But purely on instincts and body language.

So for us it is natural. Hense to why homo sapiens is the name for "wise man"
Seriously?
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2015, 07:11:05 PM »
Indeed, incest is bad in that case. Animals are pretty clever when it comes to this. Its purely instinct related. If one breeds with the same kind they basically know the results so they can be pushed away as a way of saying "NO!". But that doesn't mean they actually can share ideas as a thought. Its purely instincts that know something bad will happen if i let this stuff happen. In the same way that some know what food to eat and not to eat.Precisely. Intellect is what makes us to what we are. Aswell as creating laws and rules in a society, in written tablets, language which cultures have strived upon.

Sigh... these animals are preventing their members from having sex with animals that are unrelated. This is mainly due to politics within the group and a desire to prevent an unsustainable group population.

Animals do not innately know incest is bad. The cheetahs are so related to each other that tissue from one cheetah can be transplanted into the body of another with no signs of rejection. This is not possible for most other animal groups due to genetic variety. Dogs and cats can and will mate with siblings, mothers, fathers, and so on even if they are raised from birth with them.

Chimpanzees and bonobos are capable of ideas, culture, creativity, figuring out complex problems, and therefore could improve their intellect over time. What keeps eroding their combined intellectual achievements is not a lack of intellect. They lack impulse control and are unable to teach each other directly, and therefore must rely on imitation.

Imagine every generation of humans having to learn on their own. You might see your neighbor come up with a better way of hunting, and decide to do this. However, your offspring sees the same thing and doesn't understand or care. You are unable to teach your offspring directly because you lack the desire and your offspring lacks the interest. Furthermore, your impulses to take the food before someone else does leads to countless squabbles within the group and unnecessary stress. Within a generation or two, the new hunting idea is forgotten and cooperation within the group remains at a standstill. This was how our ancestors were, originally.

Impulse control and the ability to teach others helped to spread ideas more effectively and improve group cooperation. Yes, intellect is important, but these two fundamental elements is what led to the development of that intellect. Do not think that a big brain is all that makes a human being. Plenty of the great apes are able to figure out problems on their own. Their species pales in comparison to ours because they can't share ideas with one another easily and they do not cooperate so readily.

Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2015, 07:12:15 PM »
Peter23, none of that explains why 'its both biological and a choice'...

In what way does a person 'choose' to be gay? yes, humans are more self-aware, have tool and language use and can form abstract thought... but what does that have to do with what a person is innately sexually attracted to?

And, keep in mind, homosexuality is rife in the animal kingdom, too... its not like its unnatural or that only humans do it.
Its pretty simple. You are affected by ideas itself. Animals cant spread such things in a mental state in terms of what is right and what is wrong.

However, biologically we are like animals. The question is, should we act upon it?
See thats where we differs. We can think if its ok to do it or not. And its true that its considered unnatural for humans(In terms of what people say in general) and not in animals, simply because we cant know what animals think. (Which is why the popular frase says "Homosexuality is well documented in over 500 species. Homophobia exists in only 1. What seems unnatural now?")
And they are correct :) Because we cant know if animals are or aren't homophobic, only homosexuals. You can't ask them that stuff, only observe.

Like how do we know if animals is homophobic or not? We simply can't Its not in their mind to answer such thing. However... if animals where as evolved as us. Trust me, they'd probably know if they where or weren't.

But to not like homosexuality is not really unnatural, just as its not unnatural to like homosexuality. It depends on what you prefer in general speaking.
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Sigh... these animals are preventing their members from having sex with animals that are unrelated. This is mainly due to politics within the group and a desire to prevent an unsustainable group population.

Animals do not innately know incest is bad. The cheetahs are so related to each other that tissue from one cheetah can be transplanted into the body of another with no signs of rejection. This is not possible for most other animal groups due to genetic variety. Dogs and cats can and will mate with siblings, mothers, fathers, and so on even if they are raised from birth with them.

Chimpanzees and bonobos are capable of ideas, culture, creativity, figuring out complex problems, and therefore could improve their intellect over time. What keeps eroding their combined intellectual achievements is not a lack of intellect. They lack impulse control and are unable to teach each other directly, and therefore must rely on imitation.

Imagine every generation of humans having to learn on their own. You might see your neighbor come up with a better way of hunting, and decide to do this. However, your offspring sees the same thing and doesn't understand or care. You are unable to teach your offspring directly because you lack the desire and your offspring lacks the interest. Furthermore, your impulses to take the food before someone else does leads to countless squabbles within the group and unnecessary stress. Within a generation or two, the new hunting idea is forgotten and cooperation within the group remains at a standstill. This was how our ancestors were, originally.

Impulse control and the ability to teach others helped to spread ideas more effectively and improve group cooperation. Yes, intellect is important, but these two fundamental elements is what led to the development of that intellect. Do not think that a big brain is all that makes a human being. Plenty of the great apes are able to figure out problems on their own. Their species pales in comparison to ours because they can't share ideas with one another easily and they do not cooperate so readily.
I am glad you wrote this. You basically gave reasons to what parents typically teach their offspring. Like how to get food, what do eat. Thats something they learn by observing. In a way teaching works that way, watch and do. I liked reading that. Thanks. Its always nice getting more insight to that sort of thing.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 07:20:21 PM by Peter23 »

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2015, 07:21:01 PM »
That's what i mean. We can't know what animals think because we can't communicate with them in that matter. You can't go to a fox and ask "Do you think homosexuality is ok?" they will just sniff around and that person will just be like, why did i bother.
Its just not in their interest to ask or answer. They communicate in a different way than us, not on spoken language or ideas. But purely on instincts and body language.

So for us it is natural. Hense to why homo sapiens is the name for "wise man"

Oh for the love of god that isn't there.

It wouldn't be too much trouble to teach the concept of homosexuality to the great apes in a way they'd understand and then see how they react to the notion.

If you're going to try complex ideas like this, it helps to pick an animal species with the mental capacity to understand symbolism and abstract ideas.

Next you'll be saying humans are special because ants seem indifferent to what color the sky is.


Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2015, 07:25:26 PM »
Well apes are pretty clever. I have honestly not tried to check if some animals can be homophobic or not to be honest. But i honestly don't know if animals really give a shit about sexual orientation.  Which is sorta what humans have the ability to do.

 It just seems like they wouldn't care about it in general, unless they see a sign if someone tries to mount them or something.

Offline Mermaid

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2015, 07:29:15 PM »
Its pretty simple. You are affected by ideas itself. Animals cant spread such things in a mental state in terms of what is right and what is wrong.

How do you know that?
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Offline Mermaid

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2015, 07:29:53 PM »
Biologically, we are not LIKE animals. Biologically, we ARE animals.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Offline Mermaid

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2015, 07:30:48 PM »
i honestly don't know
There. That seems about right.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2015, 07:33:53 PM »
Its pretty simple. You are affected by ideas itself. Animals cant spread such things in a mental state in terms of what is right and what is wrong.

Chimpanzees do have a concept of what is right and wrong. In an experiment where a chimp had a tray of food and the option to dump the tray of food, it's actions inferred what was on its mind. When a handler moved the tray to another chimp, the chimpanzee did not dump the food. When the other chimp had the ability to pull the tray away from the original chimp, that's when the chimp chose to dump the food. This showed that the chimp didn't consider it "wrong" when the chimp was given the food, but the chimp did consider it "wrong" when the chimp essentially stole the food.

There are plenty of other experiments in other animals demonstrating that animals do think about what is right and wrong. Once again, humans are not the only creatures capable of spreading ideas or having morality.

However, biologically we are like animals. The question is, should we act upon it?
See thats where we differs. We can think if its ok to do it or not. And its true that its considered unnatural for humans(In terms of what people say in general) and not in animals, simply because we cant know what animals think. (Which is why the popular frase says "Homosexuality is well documented in over 500 species. Homophobia exists in only 1. What seems unnatural now?")
And they are correct :) Because we cant know if animals are or aren't homophobic, only homosexuals. You can't ask them that stuff, only observe.

Given the right experiment, you could ask a chimp if it is homophobic and possibly with dolphins as well.

Other animals can determine if an action is worth the risk. In short, they do ask themselves, should I act upon it? This is especially true when an animal has been hurt by something. They think twice before doing the same thing again.

Like how do we know if animals is homophobic or not? We simply can't Its not in their mind to answer such thing. However... if animals where as evolved as us. Trust me, they'd probably know if they where or weren't.

But to not like homosexuality is not really unnatural, just as its not unnatural to like homosexuality.

Seriously, try the chimp experiment and test your theory.



Anyway, none of your dialogue explains how homosexuality is a choice.

Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2015, 07:36:03 PM »
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How do you know that?
Well.. For starters i have not seen an animal society where they communicate and say "Ugly fag". Since they don't ask each if they think homosexuality is right or wrong. Its simply biological. Whether one can be homophobic as in a way of reaction. Who knows. Mostly my conclusion is that animals are simply biological in terms of that. It just doesn't seem they go around thinking about that stuff.  Therefor its biological, and not a choice. Pure instincts.
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Biologically, we are not LIKE animals. Biologically, we ARE animals.

Yes we are. We are not the only species that evolved, but we have evolved from a common ancestor with the chimps. Although they started getting better at using tools, it wasn't until homo sapiens came along that things really started to go on the bright side. Creating a language, spreading ideas, build. We wherent limited by what we could do on instincts. Now we could simply think because we simply are that evolved.

So sharing information and ideas just became natural. So creating rules and laws, society norms became a thing. And that's where we are today.
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Anyway, none of your dialogue explains how homosexuality is a choice.
Yes i did. I said humans can spread ideas to each other. Hense why its a choice. But its also biological in terms of what you are attracted too. So its in a way both.
Animals arent like that, since they cant ask if they think its right or wrong, they are purely on instincts. Which is why its all biological.

Basically it.
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Chimpanzees do have a concept of what is right and wrong. In an experiment where a chimp had a tray of food and the option to dump the tray of food, it's actions inferred what was on its mind. When a handler moved the tray to another chimp, the chimpanzee did not dump the food. When the other chimp had the ability to pull the tray away from the original chimp, that's when the chimp chose to dump the food. This showed that the chimp didn't consider it "wrong" when the chimp was given the food, but the chimp did consider it "wrong" when the chimp essentially stole the food.

There are plenty of other experiments in other animals demonstrating that animals do think about what is right and wrong. Once again, humans are not the only creatures capable of spreading ideas or having morality.
Well that doesn't seem unatural to me. Isnt that what the animal world is like?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 07:43:29 PM by Peter23 »