Author Topic: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."  (Read 87234 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #435 on: April 18, 2019, 04:41:34 PM »
Good post ... shows more effort, less fanaticism,

I tend to post in science detail like that...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Munch

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #436 on: April 18, 2019, 07:13:42 PM »
Nipples are developed before gender is actually physically determined by genes.  Genes don't all "kick in" at the same time.

https://www.livescience.com/32467-why-do-men-have-nipples.html

The brain develops in accordance to gender hormones at about the same time.  Sometimes there can be differences in development.  I don't think in any way that it is "wrong" that the brain and later interests in sex can go "off" evolutionary routines and demands, but I do think homosexuality is due to that.

Homosexuality is no more a "failure" than handedness is.  You can develop in the womb to be left or right handed just as being homosexual or heterosexual.  And I don't think it is anything MOM did or didn't do either. 

It just IS how one's amazing complex brain happened to develop before birth.

Forgive our language (or my language skills) not allowing the nuances I would like to make.  But I take this subject seriously and from an evolutionary point of view with as little judgement as I can.

I guess I most base this on percentages, when you consider the numbers of gay and bis in the world compared to heterosexuals. There is as of still not a definitive answer for why it develops, we know it does in the animal kingdom too, though its more seen in species with community like lions or dolphins of chimps or penguins, and of course humans.

while there isn't solid proof yet why it occurs, its obvious something that develops in the starting stages, and since it doesn't kick in till hormones develop theres no way to tell what the sexuality will be.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Offline Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #438 on: July 13, 2019, 03:52:51 PM »
I guess I most base this on percentages, when you consider the numbers of gay and bis in the world compared to heterosexuals. There is as of still not a definitive answer for why it develops, we know it does in the animal kingdom too, though its more seen in species with community like lions or dolphins of chimps or penguins, and of course humans.

while there isn't solid proof yet why it occurs, its obvious something that develops in the starting stages, and since it doesn't kick in till hormones develop theres no way to tell what the sexuality will be.

You wouldn't believe (well maybe YOU would) how many people just don't understand that physical gender isn't completely expressed at conception.  I've seen some of the most bizarre arguments about that at other sites...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Gregory

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #439 on: February 27, 2020, 03:06:33 AM »
Christ, not this old furphy.  If gays had any choice in the matter, they wouldn't be Christian.

Offline Baruch

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #440 on: February 27, 2020, 07:50:30 AM »
Christ, not this old furphy.  If gays had any choice in the matter, they wouldn't be Christian.

For some people, Jesus is the ultimate bleeding heard liberal.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #441 on: July 13, 2020, 02:10:35 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 06:10:29 PM by Rosycheeked_rebel »

Offline Baruch

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #442 on: July 13, 2020, 02:53:31 PM »
Part of cancel culture.  Destroy statue of Lincoln freeing a slave, because we must cancel the reality that slavery used to be legal.  This is actually an Islamic practice, though Christians practiced it first, and Jews before Christians.

Correct about interpreting Bible verses.  If taken out of context (as usually done) they are meaningless.  Much of the OT refers to ritual prostitution of virgin women at the Temple of Ishtar in Babylon etc.  Haven't seen many of those people around lately, have you?  Of course later rabbis and current rabbis have their own interpretation, but it is sectarian, even if more educated in Judaism than ignorant Christians can manage.

You are among friends here, no homophobia or transphobia.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline trdsf

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #443 on: July 13, 2020, 11:44:14 PM »
I don’t know if this has been mentioned already (I didn’t go through all 30 pages yet), but for Christians at least there’s dispute on whether homosexuality itself is the sin or if homosexual behavior and acts are what’s being addressed. I remember when I still thought being a gay Christian could work, I was a part of this gay Christian forum (the Gay Christian Network, I don’t know if it’s still a thing tbh). There were two sides: A and B. Side A believed that homosexuality wasn’t a sin in any way, LGBTQ people can marry, have sex, whatever. Side B believed that being LGBTQ wasn’t a sin, but acting on it was. So these people would stay single and celibate, some of them were even in heterosexual marriages before they found out that they were gay and chose to stay in them (how that works well for either party, I don’t know). I wonder if that’s what religious people especially mean when they say homosexuality is a choice.

I was married to a woman for a bit over 2 years -- for her, she was a self-described 'fag hag' and for me, she was the first woman who'd shown any interest in me as anything more than 'just friends', so it was kind of a 'perfect storm' of circumstances -- and speaking for myself, it was also one last desperate attempt to convince myself that I wasn't gay.  I was raised Catholic, there were still Issues™ at the time.

When we separated, she moved to San Francisco, and I can't help but think we did that backwards.

"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #444 on: July 14, 2020, 01:17:55 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 06:10:45 PM by Rosycheeked_rebel »

Offline trdsf

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #445 on: July 14, 2020, 10:10:47 AM »
Thank you for sharing your story. I’m always really interested to hear the stories and truths of LGBTQ people who’ve had to play straight/cis for the sake of marriages, relationships, high positions of church and what not, etc. It resonates with me in many ways and puts things in perspective. I definitely relate to trying to convince yourself that you’re not really gay.
 And Catholicism, whew. I lost the one group of friends (“friends”) that I ever really had in my life back in my freshman year of high school, when the fundamentalist Catholic of the group and I fell out because I couldn’t tolerate her intense bigotry anymore and was coming to terms with my sexuality. Funny how everyone else claimed to be pro-LGBTQ but basically took her side to be comfortable. Some level of justice: she fell out with another person from that group who is now some flavor of non-binary (though it’s very clear to everyone that they’re faking it; they are legitimately LGBTQ in some way, but they’re trying to climb the totem pole of “weirdness”—being as far away from the average cis straight person because that gives you points in the community now or whatever 🙄), and everyone in our graduating class couldn’t stand her because of how regressive and genuinely stupid she is. Catholics are wild. I also went to a Catholic private school from before pre-school to first grade. Little fond memories. Mad props to you.

Also, I laughed at the San Francisco bit. I interpreted that as a joke, but wanted to take sure because reading into it more, it might not be...? If it wasn’t, I’m sorry for laughing.
Naw, it was definitely meant as a punch line -- although it is true, she moved to SF after we separated.  She later reported back how weird it felt "not to be the weirdest person on the block anymore".  :D

I did the Catholic school thing from 5th grade through high school (where one of my teachers was the priest who abused the founder of SNAP -- apparently the diocese figured 'Well, since he only rapes girls, we can just put him in an all-boys school and that solves everything'), and then went to a (nominally) Presbyterian college, where I became a Wiccan, and then very slowly wandered my way towards such a watered-down form of deism on my way to atheism.

I was problematic as a Wiccan anyway.  I used to help my wife do her astrological charts (she was a professional astrologer) and the math is entertainingly fiendish (yeah, I'm one of those math nerds), especially in the days before we could afford a computer... and I'd be explaining why astrology was impossible while doing professional astrology.  To which she'd say something along the lines of, "That's nice, dear.  Now shut the fuck up."  XD

(For the record, my full chart with all the lines and stuff looks like a radio antenna...)
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #446 on: July 14, 2020, 11:55:40 AM »


I was problematic as a Wiccan anyway.  I used to help my wife do her astrological charts (she was a professional astrologer) and the math is entertainingly fiendish (yeah, I'm one of those math nerds), especially in the days before we could afford a computer... and I'd be explaining why astrology was impossible while doing professional astrology.  To which she'd say something along the lines of, "That's nice, dear.  Now shut the fuck up."  XD

(For the record, my full chart with all the lines and stuff looks like a radio antenna...)
I went thru a period of being serious about astrology in the mid-70's.  My final library had over 50 books and I was casting charts like a champ! :))  Yeah, the math was a bear!  I did charts for all family members and some friends.  I also did charts of those whose charts had been done by a real professional just to compare.  I could never quite match up with the way the pros had it.  That lasted a couple of years and then it dawned on me that this was simply silliness with some snakeoil salesmanship thrown in.  The books are long gone.  Worked with handwriting analysis for awhile too, but then realized it was mostly silliness as well.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #447 on: July 14, 2020, 12:10:09 PM »
Young people don't get it ... it was the "Dawning of the Age of Aquarius ..." ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline aitm

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #448 on: July 14, 2020, 12:35:01 PM »
I am sure if you met me I could "straighten you out ".....
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline trdsf

Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
« Reply #449 on: July 14, 2020, 01:21:22 PM »
I went thru a period of being serious about astrology in the mid-70's.  My final library had over 50 books and I was casting charts like a champ! :))  Yeah, the math was a bear!  I did charts for all family members and some friends.  I also did charts of those whose charts had been done by a real professional just to compare.  I could never quite match up with the way the pros had it.  That lasted a couple of years and then it dawned on me that this was simply silliness with some snakeoil salesmanship thrown in.  The books are long gone.  Worked with handwriting analysis for awhile too, but then realized it was mostly silliness as well.
Yeah, the only useful thing you can get out of advanced astrology is fluency with trigonometry.  I did have a stretch in the 70s studying purported pictures of the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot1 and whether this fuzzy picture or that was really an alien craft and all that twaddle.  Learning about population dynamics killed off any remaining belief in the possibility of a Loch Ness Monster.

Ever notice now that damn near everyone has a high-quality camera with them at all times (in the form of their smartphones), you just don't see UFO pictures like you used to?  Funny that...



1: It must be admitted that the existence of a large anthropoid or hominid in the temperate rainforests of the Pacific Northwest is not impossible, but absent better evidence there's no reason yet to think that it's probable or even merely likely.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan