Confessions: When will my deconversion be complete?

[Deidre32]

I don't always share my feelings about my deconversion, but I posted this in the form of a blog, on another atheist site. I wanted to share it here, because it sometimes is helpful to know that as a former theist, there is someone else out there who might be struggling with letting completely go of whatever it is we 'think' we miss from religion. I'm content in considering myself an atheist, but there are still moments of yearning for that false hope I once called ...faith. Anyway, here's a piece of me...




When I was a Christian, I read the book ''A Grief Observed,'' by C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis was once a self-proclaimed atheist, but as his life took many turns, he was drawn to Christianity. He is often quoted by many Christians, as being a poignant voice for them. Frankly, he still is one of my favorite authors. He has a way with words that is not only convicting, but also comforting.


In ''A Grief Observed,'' C.S. Lewis talks about loss, pain, suffering, and the process of grieving.


"Nothing will shake a man -- or at any rate a man like me -- out of his merely verbal thinking and his merely notional beliefs. He has to be knocked silly before he comes to his senses. Only torture will bring out the truth. Only under torture does he discover it himself." ~ C.S. Lewis


What is this truth that he's talking about? For him, it must have been Christianity. It must have been a belief in the supernatural, and a god...and somehow, this helped him grieve the gut-wrenching loss of his wife. This 'truth' as he calls it, must have been pretty damn comforting, during a time of great sorrow and pain. Truth with a capital 'T.'


I once accepted C.S. Lewis' truth, as my truth. Prayers and supplication were my truths. Suffering once had redemptive value, as that too was another one of my truths. But, a few years ago, I embarked on a journey away from this truth, and traveled down a stark, lonely path towards a new one. When I discovered what it meant to call myself an atheist, it felt like someone had given me a great gift that had been sitting in front of me all of my life, waiting to be opened. Also known as ''reality,'' this gift provided me the keys to freedom, to living my life authentically, and learning to trust my own intuition. When practicing religion, especially one of the Abrahamic versions, you need to realize and accept that you are no longer in charge of your own life. This 'god' that you've agreed to follow, is going to guide you, comfort you, and shelter you from every frightening storm imaginable. But, in return, you will be obligated to 'serve' this god, and that can be the tricky part. I was indoctrinated at a young age, into Christianity, and children are human sponges, as they say. I was a good girl, all of my life...followed the rules, and all of my choices, were based on how I could put others' needs above my own. (to a fault, at times)


I've talked to lifelong atheists both here, and in my offline life, who have a somewhat dark opinion of Christianity - that it is steeped in deception, fear and depravity. As an atheist now, I can identify with them, but having been a zealous Christian, I remember making excuses for those things. We are only deceived, because evil is present in the world. We fear that which we don't fully understand, and how can we ever fully understand the mystery of faith? And, depravity is part of the sin complex. Religion isn't depraved, it is mankind that rejected God's gift...and thus, depravity exists.


See? One can make up a lot of seemingly convincing and viable excuses to stick with religion. The brain is an amazing organ, and it will find a way to process that which is unfathomable. (How can one fathom lies? Call it religion. lol)


So, today, is one of those days that I thought blogging about all of these thoughts, might be cathartic for me. I'm an atheist, but there is something that I can't quite fully let go of, when it comes to my former self as a theist. I don't quite know anymore what that something is, even though I've done much self reflection.


Bur, then it dawned on me today, that maybe I will never know what that something is, and I must find a way to accept that I was duped by religion, nothing more or less. Perhaps, this is what C.S. Lewis meant by suffering, and how it will lead you to truth. The road has been illuminated for me, and if I dare to look over my shoulder at how far I've come, there is still this part of me that wishes to run back over all that trampled ground, back into the waiting arms of theism. The comfort of nothingness, as compared to the vast potential that awaits me. I know what I've left behind, so why do I still look back?


Therein lies the process of grieving. It is a push-pull paradigm that one must go through, in order to grow, learn and emerge a butterfly. I'm not there, yet. I'm still grieving. As futile as it seems on some days, I cannot move forward until I allow myself to grieve the loss of my faith, fully and deliberately. My deconversion will be complete, when I've fully processed and made peace with the fact that religion was never my friend. Never my saving grace. Never my Comforter. I'm almost there, but not quite yet.


I sometimes think it would be easier, if it were all true.

[aitm]

First and foremost, one must always....always, remember that for every christian with their own pain, there are others of Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, and more of a thousand different religions who proclaim that the same suffering that Lewis suffered they as well did and their god as well eased the pain. Of what use is a god if any other god can do the same thing? Of what use is any other god if indeed, we find out we can ease our own pain by ourselves?

[SGOS]

In Alcoholics Anonymous, people always talk about letting go of their problems and turning them over to their higher power.  And you know what?  The problems do seem to get solved.  Yay God!  But the thing is that most of our problems are not that big of a deal.  We just tend to think they are.

I have this mental image of turning my stuff over to God:  He takes my problems, looks at them and then tosses them over his shoulder into this big trash can.  He does that because the problems aren't worth his time.  I'm suspicious that God doesn't lift a finger to solve any of our petty human tribulations.  He just tosses them in the trash, and things end up working out, because as humans we work things out.  We adjust, and we accept, because that's what we do.

Now grieving is probably the hardest thing we have to cope with.  It's probably worse than panic, but we get over it.  Time takes off the hard edges of grief, and we learn to go on.  In fact, most of the time, when my grief is gone, what is left are oddly pleasant memories.  After the grieving is done what is left are memories of the good times as if there is a process that has somehow placed the good things that I lost into a memory archive.

We do these kinds of things with or without a god.  From my perspective, we do them whether there is a god or not.  It's the same for all of us, except some people are loath to take the credit they deserve for solving their own problems and working through their own grief.

Personally, I never experienced grief in letting go of my Christianity.  It took so long that all the separation anxiety worked itself out as I went along in doses so small that they were undetectable.  But I don't have any good memories of my Christian experiences in my memory archive.  I was happy to be unburdened from it.  There was nothing there that I wanted to keep, I guess.

[stromboli]

The simple answer is that you will know when you are deconverted because it will be obvious to you.

[Deidre32]

I appreciate your comments so much--thanks! When I'm less tired, I will return to reply a bit more.

SGOS, I've heard this before from other atheists who are former theists, and they too didn't 'miss anything.' I find that curious. I'd like to chat more about that tomorrow...thanks.

[SGOS]

SGOS, I've heard this before from other atheists who are former theists, and they too didn't 'miss anything.' I find that curious. I'd like to chat more about that tomorrow...thanks.

I've heard the occasional theist turned atheist say that they missed their religion, and I found THAT curious.  In my personal circle of atheist friends, none have admitted to missing their religion.  My realization that I was an atheist came late in life, and by the time I got to that point, I was pretty sure I had been hoodwinked and manipulated, and I had never once received any answer to a prayer, felt the presence of God, or witnessed any special sign.  The whole existence of my Christian life was filled with doubt, meaningless hum drum, and "nothing to see here folks".  It was just a jumble of illogical nonsense while I tried hard to make contact with some kind of presence.  There simply wasn't anything of substance to miss.  Nor did I even miss wishing that there was a god.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Just remember Diedre.. We're not in Kansas anymore..
http://youtu.be/vQLNS3HWfCM.

[Deidre32]

I've heard the occasional theist turned atheist say that they missed their religion, and I found THAT curious.  In my personal circle of atheist friends, none have admitted to missing their religion.  My realization that I was an atheist came late in life, and by the time I got to that point, I was pretty sure I had been hoodwinked and manipulated, and I had never once received any answer to a prayer, felt the presence of God, or witnessed any special sign.  The whole existence of my Christian life was filled with doubt, meaningless hum drum, and "nothing to see here folks".  It was just a jumble of illogical nonsense while I tried hard to make contact with some kind of presence.  There simply wasn't anything of substance to miss.  Nor did I even miss wishing that there was a god.

I understand, and just to clarify...I don't miss religion, rather I miss how I ''felt'' when practicing it. Not everyday, nor all the time. Usually when faced with a challenge or stress, I guess I sometimes miss the crutch religion provided. :/

Deconversion comes in stages, and it's not so much a longing to be where I used to be, but perhaps just accepting that where I am, I was always meant to be. If that makes sense. :)

[PickelledEggs]

Don't worry about when your deconversion is complete. It'll happen when it happens and it happens differently for everyone, depending on their situation of where they were in life and where they are now.

You will know when it is over though. You probably won't feel the need to rely on religion anymore... or something to that effect, if you want to keep an eye out your final disconnect from religion.

[Mike Cl]

[
So, today, is one of those days that I thought blogging about all of these thoughts, might be cathartic for me. I'm an atheist, but there is something that I can't quite fully let go of, when it comes to my former self as a theist. I don't quite know anymore what that something is, even though I've done much self reflection.


Bur, then it dawned on me today, that maybe I will never know what that something is, and I must find a way to accept that I was duped by religion, nothing more or less. Perhaps, this is what C.S. Lewis meant by suffering, and how it will lead you to truth. The road has been illuminated for me, and if I dare to look over my shoulder at how far I've come, there is still this part of me that wishes to run back over all that trampled ground, back into the waiting arms of theism. The comfort of nothingness, as compared to the vast potential that awaits me. I know what I've left behind, so why do I still look back?


Therein lies the process of grieving. It is a push-pull paradigm that one must go through, in order to grow, learn and emerge a butterfly. I'm not there, yet. I'm still grieving. As futile as it seems on some days, I cannot move forward until I allow myself to grieve the loss of my faith, fully and deliberately. My deconversion will be complete, when I've fully processed and made peace with the fact that religion was never my friend. Never my saving grace. Never my Comforter. I'm almost there, but not quite yet.

/quote]

These three items are what helps me deal with life's rough spots and the grief that is in all of our lives:
On Joy and Sorrow
聽Kahlil Gibran
Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter's oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.
When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.聽

Some of you say, "Joy is greater thar sorrow," and others say, "Nay, sorrow is the greater."
But I say unto you, they are inseparable.
Together they come, and when one sits, alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed.聽

Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy.
Only when you are empty are you at standstill and balanced.
When the treasure-keeper lifts you to weigh his gold and his silver, needs must your joy or your sorrow rise or fall.

On Self-Knowledge
聽Kahlil Gibran
Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.
But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.
You would know in words that which you have always known in thought.
You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.


And it is well you should.
The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;
And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.
But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;
And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.
For self is a sea boundless and measureless.


Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."
For the soul walks upon all paths.
The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.
The soul unfolds itself like a lotus of countless petals.


1. Denial and Isolation
The first reaction to learning of terminal illness or death of a cherished loved one is to deny the reality of the situation. It is a normal reaction to rationalize overwhelming emotions. It is a defense mechanism that buffers the immediate shock. We block out the words and hide from the facts. This is a temporary response that carries us through the first wave of pain.
2. Anger
As the masking effects of denial and isolation begin to wear, reality and its pain re-emerge. We are not ready. The intense emotion is deflected from our vulnerable core, redirected and expressed instead as anger. The anger may be aimed at inanimate objects, complete strangers, friends or family. Anger may be directed at our dying or deceased loved one. Rationally, we know the person is not to be blamed. Emotionally, however, we may resent the person for causing us pain or for leaving us. We feel guilty for being angry, and this makes us more angry.
Remember, grieving is a personal process that has no time limit, nor one “right” way to do it.
The doctor who diagnosed the illness and was unable to cure the disease might become a convenient target. Health professionals deal with death and dying every day. That does not make them immune to the suffering of their patients or to those who grieve for them.
Do not hesitate to ask your doctor to give you extra time or to explain just once more the details of your loved one’s illness. Arrange a special appointment or ask that he telephone you at the end of his day. Ask for clear answers to your questions regarding medical diagnosis and treatment. Understand the options available to you. Take your time.
3. Bargaining
The normal reaction to feelings of helplessness and vulnerability is often a need to regain controlâ€"
ï,·If only we had sought medical attention sooner…
ï,·If only we got a second opinion from another doctor…
ï,·If only we had tried to be a better person toward them…
Secretly, we may make a deal with God or our higher power in an attempt to postpone the inevitable. This is a weaker line of defense to protect us from the painful reality.
4. Depression
Two types of depression are associated with mourning. The first one is a reaction to practical implications relating to the loss. Sadness and regret predominate this type of depression. We worry about the costs and burial. We worry that, in our grief, we have spent less time with others that depend on us. This phase may be eased by simple clarification and reassurance. We may need a bit of helpful cooperation and a few kind words. The second type of depression is more subtle and, in a sense, perhaps more private. It is our quiet preparation to separate and to bid our loved one farewell. Sometimes all we really need is a hug.
5. Acceptance
Reaching this stage of mourning is a gift not afforded to everyone. Death may be sudden and unexpected or we may never see beyond our anger or denial. It is not necessarily a mark of bravery to resist the inevitable and to deny ourselves the opportunity to make our peace. This phase is marked by withdrawal and calm. This is not a period of happiness and must be distinguished from depression.
Loved ones that are terminally ill or aging appear to go through a final period of withdrawal. This is by no means a suggestion that they are aware of their own impending death or such, only that physical decline may be sufficient to produce a similar response. Their behavior implies that it is natural to reach a stage at which social interaction is limited. The dignity and grace shown by our dying loved ones may well be their last gift to us.
Coping with loss is a ultimately a deeply personal and singular experience â€" nobody can help you go through it more easily or understand all the emotions that you’re going through. But others can be there for you and help comfort you through this process. The best thing you can do is to allow yourself to feel the grief as it comes over you. Resisting it only will prolong the natural process of healing.

I find it sort of ironic that Gibran was a christian from the middle east.  Yet his poetry reaches me deeply.  When he refers to the 'soul', I simply translate it to mean my true inner self; who I really am when all the surface stuff is removed.  The last item details a bit what the steps of grief are.  I find that when I grieve, I really do need to go through those steps--and I find the more I wallow in each step, the more complete the healing. 

And yes, I think you need to grieve the loss of your old belief system.  With it's passing there was a vacuum of sorts.  Your grieving that loss will help make the transition to a new 'belief' system more complete. 

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Diedre.. I doubt that there will ever be an epoch where the bell rings and you'll think, "I'm completely decoverted!" much like the epoch between being young vs being old. It's all relative to what goes on between your ears. It's a bit like laying in soft grass looking at a scrawny dying pine tree and wishing that tree would suddenly morph into a beautiful lush cherry tree loaded with red, ripe cherries. You know it's not going to happen, but a tiny part of you still thinks that maybe if you wish hard enough it will.. Of course that's childish thinking, but we all have our moments when we have those childish thoughts wishing things we can never change will indeed change. Sorrow and sadness are mental constructs and coping mechanisms, evolutionary traits developed over millions and millions of years and yet inside all of us they feel as if it's all some personal vendetta put against us by some boogieman in the sky. They're ways of dealing with loss and so on to move forward after it wears off.. And though you may get over the loss of Scruffy, you favorite kitty who got run over by a car when you were 8 another Scruffy is always waiting to take its place and get run over again..
There will always be reasons for sorrow and many of us invent them just so we can justify feeling shitty, but Big Spooky in the sky isn't going to make it go away because if there is a big spooky he just doesn't care..

[Drummer Guy]

I'm still grieving. As futile as it seems on some days, I cannot move forward until I allow myself to grieve the loss of my faith, fully and deliberately. My deconversion will be complete, when I've fully processed and made peace with the fact that religion was never my friend. Never my saving grace. Never my Comforter. I'm almost there, but not quite yet.

Why is it necessary to convince yourself that religion was never your friend, and never comforted you?  Unlike some other people on this board, I never had terrible experiences with religion.  It did bring me a lot of comfort and a lot of joy.  It was friendly to me.  At the end of the day I had to give it up because it's simply not true, but that doesn't mean I need to convince myself that it was a bad thing.  (Though I recognize how it was bad for others)

I think of all those times where I was comforted by my beliefs, and that's just it, I wasn't comforted by an actual god, I was comforted by my beliefs.  Beliefs can act as quite a powerful placebo.  But if I was able to do that when there wasn't an actual god helping me, then that means I was actually helping myself. 

So instead of trying to convince yourself that it was never comforting, why not own the fact that your beliefs actually did provide you with great comfort?  Now moving forward, how are you going to harness that in an atheist worldview?

[SGOS]

I sometimes think it would be easier, if it were all true.

I'm still grieving. As futile as it seems on some days, I cannot move forward until I allow myself to grieve the loss of my faith, fully and deliberately. My deconversion will be complete, when I've fully processed and made peace with the fact that  I'm almost there, but not quite yet.

I agree with Drummer Guy here.  As for your comments:

Religion was never my friend:  Not sure how it could be a friend.  It just is what it is, but a friend only metaphorically, I think.

Never my saving grace:   Saving grace doesn't mean anything to me.  It's word salad from the domain of religious double speak.  What do you need to be saved from?  I went through this for awhile.  While accepting that a god did not exist, I still carried baggage about Hell, which I had rejected as nonsense.  The baggage was that I still feared it.  It went away after a time.  I don't know that I had to think my way through it.  Maybe.  But it's just an unnecessary fear of something that had no evidence in reality.  A perfectly good waste of fear that would be more appropriate in the face of an oncoming bus.  There is too much poetry in "saving grace" to be meaningful to me.

Never my Comforter.  Here's where I agree with Drummer Guy.  I can understand that it could be a comforter.  It's OK to own that, although I never gained comfort from my religion.  I just understand that people might.  Why they would is what I don't understand.  What are they being comforted from?  Is this something you cannot do on your own?  It seems like comfort comes from within, not bestowed upon us from outside.  Well, maybe with a shot of heroin or something.  That would be external.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I once asked my friend in Jesus for fifty bucks and the preacher picked my pocket instead..

[robbcayman]

I understand his point. I have had to deal with the death of my brother and a few close friends and I'm only 31. I know religion can be comforting in those scenarios. Still though, don't you want the truth? Some people subscribe to ignorance is bliss, but that's a pill I just can't swallow.

I remember finding out Santa wasn't real as a child and a lot of the magic was lost. For many Christians, leaving the faith they feel a similar disappointment that the magic and wonder of the supernatural is just not real. Eventually though, you start to get angry and feel foolish. If you tithed like I did it only adds insult to injury. I would love to have my 10 percent back; it makes me sick to think of how much money I wasted on a myth. I was angry about how I thought about gays, judging other people for not living Christ like, praying to an invisible non-existent deity etc..

I guess there is just a real release in time. You become thankful for the enlightenment. However, there is always a tradeoff to higher truth. Yes, you are free of bullshit dogma, but in turn there is no celestial figure sitting with your relatives in the afterlife eating apple pie.