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Religion is bullshit,but

Started by Outnumbered, February 26, 2013, 02:17:17 PM

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Alaric I

Quote from: "Davka"What do you know? Do you know that we don't currently have soldiers in the Middle East who are routinely killing brown people to jack up their body count, but that information about American military atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan won't be publicly available for another 50 years?

Yes, in fact current Rules of Engagement make it more dangerous for our soldiers as they pretty much have to waiy until the get shot to do anything.

QuoteMilitary strategy only works in war games. Real war is much too messy for such niceties.

Not at all, you are limiting the definition to just point and shoot, there is quite a lot more than that to it.

Davka

Quote from: "Alaric I"
Quote from: "Davka"What do you know? Do you know that we don't currently have soldiers in the Middle East who are routinely killing brown people to jack up their body count, but that information about American military atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan won't be publicly available for another 50 years?

Yes, in fact current Rules of Engagement make it more dangerous for our soldiers as they pretty much have to waiy until the get shot to do anything.

Which is why no soldiers have been caught indiscriminately killing civilians, because the Rules of Engagement prohibit such things.  :roll:

Quote
QuoteMilitary strategy only works in war games. Real war is much too messy for such niceties.

Not at all, you are limiting the definition to just point and shoot, there is quite a lot more than that to it.

I'm not limiting the definition at all. Nothing has been added to military strategy since Sun Tzu, who understood full well how rarely even the best strategies work out as planned on the battlefield.

If you want to talk chess strategy, I'll listen. But war has no rules, and is unpredictable. We've been fighting in Afghanistan for ten years now, with the best-trained military strategists in the world on our side, and what have we accomplished?

The Non Prophet

What does this have to do with the religions credibility? Ironic thread?

Make a off topic thread about how real aspects of peoples lives is bullshit instead.

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Davka"I know that military strategy in the USA has been formulated at the political level for well over 50 years.

Actually, it's been formulated at the level for much longer.  Our Constitution embodies the politician as the Commander-in-Chief, and  even as far back as Lincoln, decisions on strategy have been made at the Presidential level.  As Clausewitz wrote, "War is an extension of politics" -- and that was 175 years ago.  Even then, it was only stating what had been obvious for centuries prior.

Quote from: "Davka"What do you know?

I know that military strategy is not in the same category of thought as religion, and that comparing the two is silly.

Quote from: "Davka"Do you know that we don't currently have soldiers in the Middle East who are routinely killing brown people to jack up their body count, but that information about American military atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan won't be publicly available for another 50 years?

We actually do have soldiers (in Afghanistan, not the Middle East), but whether they're committing murders that are being kept secret, as you allege, is open to conjecture.

Not sure why you think "brown" is important here, either.  Do you think that the skin-color of the Afghanis has more to do with the war there than the support their government gave AQ before,, during, and after 9/11?

And finally, none of this has anything to do with military strategy as a field  of study.

Quote from: "Davka"Military strategy only works in war games. Real war is much too messy for such niceties.

Study some military history.  What was significant about Hannibal's victory at Cannae?  And how was Hindenburg able to capitalize on having studied it, when he fought the Russians at Tannenberg? Strategy sure worked there.  Ditto Sichelschnitt, Bagration, and the two-pronged strategy of Nimitz and MacArthur in the Pacific.  I could go on.  

Military strategy is the study of the operational art of war, and your pale echo of Clemenceau's adage ("War is too important to be left to the generals") doesn't hold true, at all.  Real war has fog, but that doesn't mean there's no place for plans, and only an idiot wouldn't make plans guided by an overarching strategy in such a catastrophic set of circumstances. War fought without a strategy almost always results in a defeat.  

Your "argument" -- and I'm using that term loosely here -- is not rational.

I'll ask you again -- tell us what you know about the field of military strategy?

Quote from: "Davka"But war has no rules, and is unpredictable.

No one has argued that war has "rules".  This is a strawman.

Quote from: "Davka"We've been fighting in Afghanistan for ten years now, with the best-trained military strategists in the world on our side, and what have we accomplished?

And no one is arguing that having a strategy guarantees that that strategy will be victorious, because the enemy too will have a strategy.  Wars most often are the contest between two strategies, taken to its extreme (because most strategies angle for a bloodless victory).
<insert witty aphorism here>

Plu

I think the idea was not that military strategy itself was bullshit, but rather that military strategy requires bullshitting everyone on both sides of the wars, with possibly more bullshit needed on your own side to convince your team to keep getting themselves killed than it requires towards the enemy.

Your country will feed you shovels full of crap in wartime to convince the enemy are all horrible demon-beasts and that you are the invincible forces of good with angels flying at your back. And it works, too.

Fidel_Castronaut

A thread on semantics? Uh oh! *runs*
lol, marquee. HTML ROOLZ!

Youssuf Ramadan

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Military strategy isn't bullshit.

Not all the time, but Haig's was somewhat suspect..... then I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing.   :-k

Oh, there're plenty of failed strategies, and frontal assaults on a fortified position are stupid.  It didn't take hindsight either.  Had Haig studied Cold Harbor at all, he would have seen the dangers of his chosen strategy, especially considering that the defenders of 1916 had automatic guns and more powerful explosives -- not to mention gases, weapons unavailable to Confederate troops.

Makes sense to me.  :smile:

St Giordano Bruno

It not so much that military strategy is bullshit but military propaganda AKA political propaganda is, but you cannot draw comparisons with religion, but religion can draw comparisons with woo or fairy folklore which are all equally bullshit IMO.
Voltaire - "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities"

leo

One thing for sure . Religion is bullshit .
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

SGOS

Oh well.  I guess we should give religion a pass then?

Davka

Quote from: "St Giordano Bruno"It not so much that military strategy is bullshit but military propaganda AKA political propaganda is, but you cannot draw comparisons with religion, but religion can draw comparisons with woo or fairy folklore which are all equally bullshit IMO.
Actually, I think you can draw comparisons between any sort of propaganda and religion. It's all about telling people to believe in bullshit that is not supported by objective reality, but which resonates on an emotional level. "Global warming is a myth" is not that different from "God answers prayer." And statements like "cutting taxes and deregulation makes everybody richer" or "raising the minimum wage will cause job loss" are even closer to religion, since neither one lines up with observable historical reality.

mykcob4

Quote from: "Davka"The military is bullshit. "Military strategy" is a euphemism for "how many brown people can we kill and get away with it?"

'Kill Anything That Moves'
No military statagey isn't bullshit. You're right it use to be send in the coloreds and get them killed, but modern warfare isn't about getting people killed anymore. It's use the most expemsive equipment, spend billions to take out one enemy combatant.
The only bullshit in military planning comes from the defense contractors. Actual combat isn't bullshit at all. It's a science that has reduced operations to very low casualty rates for our side. The biggest threat is friendly fire, which in many cases is unavoidable.
There are dangerous situations that don't allow superior firepower and technology to engage. Clearing houses for instance. Tactics and training have reduced the threat somewhat but it is still very dangerous. If only the enemy would cooperate and fight on a division level front, then we would sustain none if any casualties. They don't so we are faced with endless terrorist and gorrilla fire fights which cause injury and death to our own.
Actually the biggest threat to USA and ally forces is sickness and fatigue.
So no military planning is not "bullshit."

surly74

Quote from: "mykcob4"The biggest threat is friendly fire, which in many cases is unavoidable.

why is friendly fire unavoidable?
God bless those Pagans
--
Homer Simpson

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "surly74"
Quote from: "mykcob4"The biggest threat is friendly fire, which in many cases is unavoidable.

why is friendly fire unavoidable?

Because the fog of war clouds both sides.  Friction besets all operations.  Bullets go through walls.  That sort of thing.
<insert witty aphorism here>

surly74

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "surly74"
Quote from: "mykcob4"The biggest threat is friendly fire, which in many cases is unavoidable.

why is friendly fire unavoidable?

Because the fog of war clouds both sides.  Friction besets all operations.  Bullets go through walls.  That sort of thing.

I get that. problem is the US has had a notorious rep for being rather careless when it comes to combat. My grandfather told me a good line, When the British bomb the Luftwaffe duck. When the Luftwaffe bomb the British ducks, when the US bombs EVERYONE ducks. Where there is smoke there is fire. pun intended.

I get that friendly fire happens. It just flippant and arbitrary that steps can't be taken to avoid or reduce it. i guess it's another that is bullshit (in keeping with the topic)
God bless those Pagans
--
Homer Simpson