Nothing without god? It's a beautiful concept!

[St Giordano Bruno]

A universe without God is not a universe that is not worth living in (contrary to what many theists think) but it is the best kind of universe that is worth living in IMHO.

[TheDevoutPasta]

It's hard to argue with believers from a believer's point of view. I can't exactly throw out atheistic concepts in my situation, although later in the discussion, I tried to bring up some points to make them think. Slipping into the gospel teacher is disturbingly easy for me. I know all the answers and the psychological ways to teach them. I had to stop myself a couple times from teaching the lesson well. It's weird.

I do this all the time in my confirmation class, last week on right to die issues i got them to the point where they just read from the cataclysm (think thats how its spelled) as an end-all-be-all. Sucks that we can't go farther in our arguments then this.

[leo]

I don't understand this concept . Nothing without god . The universe exists without god  . That's not nothingness .

[widdershins]

Wow, that's creepy. I'd never thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. Every one of those things is valid. It all comes down to submission, doesn't it? Islam actually literally means submission. So the leaders of said religions are actually either abused or abusers, depending on how they see things.

The truly sad part of it is that most of the people, the ones sitting in the pews each day, abuse themselves and don't even know it.  As a young Christian the person most influential in my conversion and maintaining the delusion that there was a God who loved us all, yet would inexplicably light us on fire simply for not believing in him was myself.  I did more to damage my one mind than all other influences combined.  I willingly made myself retarded so that I could keep believing nonsense.

[BlackL1ght]

Wow, that's creepy. I'd never thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. Every one of those things is valid. It all comes down to submission, doesn't it? Islam actually literally means submission. So the leaders of said religions are actually either abused or abusers, depending on how they see things.

The truly sad part of it is that most of the people, the ones sitting in the pews each day, abuse themselves and don't even know it.  As a young Christian the person most influential in my conversion and maintaining the delusion that there was a God who loved us all, yet would inexplicably light us on fire simply for not believing in him was myself.  I did more to damage my one mind than all other influences combined.  I willingly made myself retarded so that I could keep believing nonsense.

I know the process. If I'm correct, that sort of willful ignorance and self-abuse is a hallmark of fundamentalism. For a while I thought of religion and its tactics as psychological "traps". It's the same kind of thing that you mention: I sin because I'm not devout enough and I should feel bad because I'm not good enough. This motivates me to become better, but ultimately I will sin again regardless. There is no amount of zeal that can completely prevent all the sins mentioned by any religion. If this makes you doubt the religion, that is the most horrible sin, and you should feel bad, repent and believe again. The only door out is literally through hell.

These traps are numerous and interweaving through the mormon church. I would mention other churches as well that I'm sure use the same techniques, but I haven't experienced them there myself.

[The Non Prophet]

It's exactly the opposite of beautiful, it's a disgusting notion that takes away the accomplishments of mankind. Genuflecting is so pitiful when all the beautiful things are such without the religion in the first place.

[ApostateLois]

ALL churches practice some variety of guilt-inducing indoctrination, so that everyone will always feel as inadequate and worthless as possible. This keeps them coming back for more indoctrination, in the belief that they haven't been studying hard enough, or listening to the sermons closely enough, or thinking about Sweet Jesus often enough, or whatever imagined crime they have committed against God. Donating money is often a way of alleviating some of the guilt. "Well, I didn't do my Bible study last week, so I'm doubling my donation this week." Since churches need money to survive, they thrive financially on the guilt of their sheeple. "If you donate just five or ten dollars, God will bless you with [insert promises here]. Don't be afraid, just take that leap of faith and see how richly God rewards you!" So they put money in the collection plate, maybe more than they can afford, and if the expected blessings don't come, they feel guilty for not giving enough. Nothing a Christian does is ever quite good enough.

[WitchSabrina]

ALL churches practice some variety of guilt-inducing indoctrination, so that everyone will always feel as inadequate and worthless as possible. This keeps them coming back for more indoctrination, in the belief that they haven't been studying hard enough, or listening to the sermons closely enough, or thinking about Sweet Jesus often enough, or whatever imagined crime they have committed against God. Donating money is often a way of alleviating some of the guilt. "Well, I didn't do my Bible study last week, so I'm doubling my donation this week." Since churches need money to survive, they thrive financially on the guilt of their sheeple. "If you donate just five or ten dollars, God will bless you with [insert promises here]. Don't be afraid, just take that leap of faith and see how richly God rewards you!" So they put money in the collection plate, maybe more than they can afford, and if the expected blessings don't come, they feel guilty for not giving enough. Nothing a Christian does is ever quite good enough.

Back when I ran a Wiccan *church*  (we called it a coven instead, of course)  we spent many sessions working against guilt.  In fact, we tried to address mentally and emotionally people's past and any lingering guilt because guilt is disabling and non productive.  Some people were successful and ridding themselves of guilt (or so they seemed) and some couldn't shake it - in particular their guilt for having left the Christian Church.  Proving that those claws do dig in and leave scars.  If I were to make a guess I'd wager it had everything to do with a person's self confidence or self assurance, combined with their life circumstances.  It was amazing to witness people who seriously chose to cling to guilt instead of alleviating their lives of such.

[widdershins]

ALL churches practice some variety of guilt-inducing indoctrination, so that everyone will always feel as inadequate and worthless as possible. This keeps them coming back for more indoctrination, in the belief that they haven't been studying hard enough, or listening to the sermons closely enough, or thinking about Sweet Jesus often enough, or whatever imagined crime they have committed against God. Donating money is often a way of alleviating some of the guilt. "Well, I didn't do my Bible study last week, so I'm doubling my donation this week." Since churches need money to survive, they thrive financially on the guilt of their sheeple. "If you donate just five or ten dollars, God will bless you with [insert promises here]. Don't be afraid, just take that leap of faith and see how richly God rewards you!" So they put money in the collection plate, maybe more than they can afford, and if the expected blessings don't come, they feel guilty for not giving enough. Nothing a Christian does is ever quite good enough.

Oh, I have seen this one in practice, and shamelessly so.  The church my mom still goes to is made up of mostly older people on a fixed income and whatever children then can talk or force into going.  One of the things my mom is fond of saying and truly believes is, "If I give my tithes to the church my money 'goes further'".  She heard that bullshit in a sermon.  Yes, the pastor actually sat down one day and said to himself, "I'd really like to get paid more, but I preach to a bunch of poor people on Social Security who can't afford to give much if they want to feed their families.  How do I get around this?" and he came up with that little fucking gem.  The pastor's family, by the way, is the only family in the church driving a new car and with closets full of name brand clothes and shoes.  And still that wasn't enough for the piece of shit, so he fed his poor parishioners that bullshit line about how giving money to the church will somehow make what they keep for themselves more valuable.

[BlackL1ght]

ALL churches practice some variety of guilt-inducing indoctrination, so that everyone will always feel as inadequate and worthless as possible. This keeps them coming back for more indoctrination, in the belief that they haven't been studying hard enough, or listening to the sermons closely enough, or thinking about Sweet Jesus often enough, or whatever imagined crime they have committed against God. Donating money is often a way of alleviating some of the guilt. "Well, I didn't do my Bible study last week, so I'm doubling my donation this week." Since churches need money to survive, they thrive financially on the guilt of their sheeple. "If you donate just five or ten dollars, God will bless you with [insert promises here]. Don't be afraid, just take that leap of faith and see how richly God rewards you!" So they put money in the collection plate, maybe more than they can afford, and if the expected blessings don't come, they feel guilty for not giving enough. Nothing a Christian does is ever quite good enough.

Back when I ran a Wiccan *church*  (we called it a coven instead, of course)  we spent many sessions working against guilt.  In fact, we tried to address mentally and emotionally people's past and any lingering guilt because guilt is disabling and non productive.  Some people were successful and ridding themselves of guilt (or so they seemed) and some couldn't shake it - in particular their guilt for having left the Christian Church.  Proving that those claws do dig in and leave scars.  If I were to make a guess I'd wager it had everything to do with a person's self confidence or self assurance, combined with their life circumstances.  It was amazing to witness people who seriously chose to cling to guilt instead of alleviating their lives of such.

Your church sounds awesome. Just saying.