Author Topic: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?  (Read 3545 times)

Offline Rob4you (OP)

U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« on: August 30, 2014, 11:53:11 PM »
Hi, how you've been? I hope that all of you are fine and well.  :azn:

I don't pretend to offend you and I don't know everything about gun control laws of U.S.A., but I've been watching news about incidents with guns in the United States, and I've been thinking: is there really a serious problem or it's just the media? the last one was about a little girl who killed a gun instructor with a sub-machine gun, and maybe it's just an isolated case and the press is just giving it much attention or not, I don't know, but do you think there should be new laws about gun control? more strict ones I mean? I mean surely every country have gun related crimes, and I've heard that the problem is worse in some places than others, like Los Angeles, but it could be just an stereotype, but maybe people could compromise and reach a middle point? right?
 
So, what are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 11:55:33 PM by Rob4you »
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring". Carl Sagan

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Carl Sagan

"What I\'m saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job". Carl Sagan

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2014, 12:07:43 AM »
Yes, there really is a very serious problem with guns, they kill too easy, and with poverty on the increase, the ability to make large sums of money selling and producing drugs when jobs are not available, gangs, crooked police and politicians, it can only get worse. Also, over population also contributes to the problem, in fact it may be the mother of all the problems we have. And religion isn't helping with the ignorant, "just say no," and saying, "birth control is wrong," and the idiotic Quiver Society. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2014, 12:12:02 AM »
It is not "the media."  If anything, the media is failing in its duty to report the true scope of the problem.

No, the problem is quite simply that there are too many fucking morons walking around with guns.

Here's a list of 100 incidents.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/17/1312237/-100-GunFAILs-GunFAIL-LXXVII

Read it and weep.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2014, 12:32:14 AM »
Holy crap! I guess that answers the question. Thanks for the info! Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.


Offline SGOS

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 10:26:08 AM »
For some, what seems like large numbers of gun deaths, a hundred here, a hundred there, are insignificant based on the entire population, and falls well within acceptable parameters considering the overwhelming personal safety guns provide.  When you're in a mall or a bar, when some guy starts looking at you funny, it's just not worth being short on guns.  For others, one senseless gun accident, or killing by a drunk spouse, is one death too many.  For the rest of us, we're just glad to make it to our sunset years without being the victim of an armed robbery or stray bullet in a culture gone berserk.  We count it as a blessing.

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 12:56:34 PM »
Hi, how you've been? I hope that all of you are fine and well.  :azn:

I don't pretend to offend you and I don't know everything about gun control laws of U.S.A., but I've been watching news about incidents with guns in the United States, and I've been thinking: is there really a serious problem or it's just the media? the last one was about a little girl who killed a gun instructor with a sub-machine gun, and maybe it's just an isolated case and the press is just giving it much attention or not, I don't know, but do you think there should be new laws about gun control? more strict ones I mean? I mean surely every country have gun related crimes, and I've heard that the problem is worse in some places than others, like Los Angeles, but it could be just an stereotype, but maybe people could compromise and reach a middle point? right?
 
So, what are your thoughts?
This is such a hot button topic that it becomes difficult to figure out who is telling the whole truth. There are tons of studies and statistics that exist. And nearly everyone will skew whatever numbers they can if doing so will lend favor to their particular argument. So its tough to know who to believe exactly.

And this is especially true of the american news media because at the end of the day, they're all for-profit enterprises which need an audience in order to sell their advertising and make their budgets work. This is also true of the non-profit public radio type media. They all need to keep and/or grow their audience or their business' go away. So you, me and everyone else will claim that what we really want is an unbias news source that we can trust yada yada yada. But the sales figures don't lie, and some of the things that sell news best are blood and fear.

Any pilot will tell you that off airport landings in small single engine aircraft are not at all uncommon. They happen all the time and most are without incident or injury. But if there's video of it happening? Or even if there's just video of the plane on the ground after the fact with unharmed people standing nearby, that will be the big story on the six o clock news in every market within 1000 miles of the event. There might have been 12 multi car pile ups on the interstates that day within that 1000 mile radius with multiple injuries and or deaths but those accidents won't be reported on at all. The top story will be PILOT NARROWLY ESCAPES DEATH IN FRIGHTENING PLANE CRASH!!!! Sure the pilot wasn't injured and sure the 'crashed' plane didn't have a scratch on it, but that won't stop the media from cashing in on the story. That kind of shit happens every single day.

So needless to say when this very same news media reports that gun violence is out of control, its kind of hard to know whether you can believe them or not. Here's what I do know. The US government's own bureau of justice statistics has reported that gun related violence has declined between 1993 and 2011. http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?iid=4616&ty=pbdetail Now that's not to say that there isn't still a problem or that there's no need for better gun laws. But figuring out what the exact problem is or what truly effective laws would be is a problem that requires a level of knowledge and intelligence which far exceeds what can be found in just about anyone who is stupid enough to try to run for public office.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 05:29:54 PM »
I just heard about this from the amazing atheist.  I'm not really sure whether or not the instructor was doing something wrong, because all of the ranges that I've been to have dividers in between each space which I think is bullet proof.  But To be honest I don't think a 9 year old girl should be firing an UZI.  It would be one thing if it was a 9mm pistol, and even at that point 9 years old is still probably a bit young.  I can't believe that I live in a country where you must be 18 to vote, 21 to drink, and 16 to drive, but only 9 to fire a machine gun, good ol' Murica

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2014, 12:39:47 AM »
My thoughts on all this:


The younger you teach kids the proper way to use a gun the better. You need to take the "mystery" away from it, I grew up in Detroit and it wasn't uncommon for a kid to come out and show off his dads handgun or something like that. It was good that I was taught at a young age how to check and see if its loaded. This also allowed me to show the other idiots around me how to check it and handle it in a safe way.

When you get a kid who has never been around them they will be way more impressed and want to "play" with it, but will not know the safe way to go about this. Now I agree that the 9 year old shooting the instructor is horrible but unfortunately accidents do happen. Iam sure if you look hard enough you can find accidents like this with almost anything.

If a kid accidentally stabs someone you don't try to outlaw knives. If a kid grabs the car keys and accidentally starts it and hits something you don't outlaw cars. Yet for some reason anytime a accident happens with a gun people scream that we need to get rid of them.

Gun laws just take guns away from law abiding people, its rare to find a case where some one with a CPL/CCW misuses a gun or uses it in a crime. Its always someone who shouldn't have had the gun in the first place. So you can try to convince yourself that making laws on guns will make them harder to get, but the reality is that it will just make it harder for lawful people to get them. The criminals and gangsters will still be able to get them with no problem but now they will know that anywhere they go they will be the only people to have them. This will just encourage more crime and more innocent people getting hurt or worse.

In conclusion or to sum it up: Gun laws don't work. They just take guns out of the hands of people who should have them and take away peoples ability to protect themselves.


Thank you,
PureEvil

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2014, 12:57:15 AM »
I don't buy the "for your protection" nonsense.  The chances of you being able to get your gun that is hopefully in a safe and locked place and operate it flawlessly under stress are extremely unlikely.  By the time you realize that your house or whatever has been broken in to you are almost certainly too late. 

I'm on my cell phone so I'll look later, but I have watched studies showing what people are capable of with a gun while being in a situation of high stress and unpredictability... The results were not good.

People like guns because they like to shoot at stuff for fun... This protection argument is weak at best. 

You'll be more likely to blow your own head off than you will protect yourself using your weapon.

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2014, 01:14:30 AM »
The protection issue is very true, there was a case in the small town iam in now where a kid broke in and tried to rob the place. The owner grabbed his gun when he heard something and went to check on it. When he did the guy robbing the place shot him, but the owner was able to shoot the robber as well. Both lived and due to the robbers injures he had to go to the hospital where he was caught and is now sitting in jail with a 15 year sentence.

Here is a good site for lots of cases where people use guns to protect themselves, there family, and property: http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

The problem is that the news rarely covers these cases and only seems to like to cover the cases where guns are used for the wrong reasons.

I personally have a CPL and always carry my gun on me. Most people have no idea that I have it and like most people that are like me we like to keep it that way. I look at it this way: I would rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

As far as having guns just for target shooting, competitions, or hunting I agree that a lot of people have them just for that purpose and there is nothing wrong with that either. Again these are people who have a hobby, are legal law abiding citizens, and enjoy having and shooting guns. There is no reason to deny them the right to do this.

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2014, 07:07:59 AM »
I don't buy the "for your protection" nonsense.  The chances of you being able to get your gun that is hopefully in a safe and locked place and operate it flawlessly under stress are extremely unlikely. 
Biometric safes are cheap and readily available and they allow you to keep a firearm safely locked up where no one but you can get to it and yet allow you to have access to it in under 10 seconds. My cell phone charges on the kitchen counter every night. We don't have a land line phone. I don't have a handgun because I don't have a need for one where I live. But if I did, I'd have it in a finger print safe in my night stand and if that were the case, I'd be able to have my hands on it WAY sooner than I could get to a phone, call the police, wait for 20 minutes or more for one of the two on duty LEO's to get from where they are to where I am.

Does that guarantee I could then take down an armed intruder or otherwise get through the situation safely? Nope. But at the same time you have to admit the thought of bringing a cell phone to gun fight doesn't exactly instill confidence. At least it doesn't for me.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2014, 07:53:22 AM »
The safe is only one small bit.  Studies show that you are significantly more likely to be shot while in possession of a firearm than while not.

I really don't think the numbers favor the defense argument.  Most people want a gun because they want to be able to shoot targets and pretend to feel protected.  In reality a gun will put you in significant more danger.

Yes I'm sure there are cases of successful defense but I don't think the risks outweigh any sort of protection that you might think you have.

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2014, 08:03:22 AM »
I've been a shooter and owner since 1964. I hold a federal firearms license. I currently own "a few" guns, mostly antiques, some of which are capable of full automatic.

I would never, ever, let a 9 yo rock-and-roll.

I also believe there are far too many guns in this country.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: U.S.A. and gun control, is there really a serious problem?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2014, 08:05:12 AM »
The safe is only one small bit.  Studies show that you are significantly more likely to be shot while in possession of a firearm than while not.

I really don't think the numbers favor the defense argument.  Most people want a gun because they want to be able to shoot targets and pretend to feel protected.  In reality a gun will put you in significant more danger.

Yes I'm sure there are cases of successful defense but I don't think the risks outweigh any sort of protection that you might think you have.
The only successful "defense" with a firearm would be show that you are willing to use it. Many people buy firearms but wouldn't have the cojones to shoot someone even if it meant saving their own lives.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers