Tactics and making progress.

[Brian37 (OP)]

Everyone reading this on issues of economics and and even good use of logic and defense of science. Do not think short term. If anyone here reading this thinks it is all doom and gloom, you are thinking short term. You look at the ignorance of our species thousands of years ago, we still progressed. Just with atheists, you look where our voice was in 01 compared to how big it is now, there really is a huge difference. You do not have to own a website, or be rich or famous. Those at the top of a movement are the few and stand on the bulk of the rest of us that make progress possible.

Now having said that, it is also important to not try to set up utopias ourselves. We are still a diverse species and even among liberal theists or liberal atheists we still are individuals and will not agree all the time. Everything boils down to economics and education. We still have to accept that we are diverse and that means humans will have different economic goals. It is ok to expect the gap not to get too lopsided, but it is unreasonable to expect everyone to make the same pay.

We do not need to be like the tea party suggesting a Che revolution or replace our open market. It simply needs to be purged of greed. Every single post counts. I am not a fan of idiots who think "what are you doing other than posting"? I can tell you that my current mindset and motivation was shaped, not by books or rich famous atheists, but merely reading the posts of other atheists. Every post counts, every voice counts. It wont happen over night but it cant happen if we do nothing at all.

[SGOS]

Doom and gloom aside, the long term future can go two ways.  It can get better or it can get worse.  As is stated on every financial prospectus issued by any company, "Past performance does not predict future success."  In the end we can't predict the future or the outcomes of our actions.  Pessimism and optimism are two sides of the same coin.

[Brian37 (OP)]

Oh bullshit!

Ultimately our species ride will end. But all you are saying is anything can happen so fuck it. No, when you consider the direction pollution and climate change are causing and the exploitation of a mere 85 uber billionaires monopoly on global wealth, to suggest that anything could happen so lets do nothing. Pardon me but KISS MY ASS. If I am going to go down, I am going to go down using my voice.

[SGOS]

My goodness.  I certainly did not mean to say what you thought I said, but then I've been spending a lot of time in the Deepak Chopra thread lately.  What I alluded to, but left unsaid is that you can make a reasonable case for pessimism.  Indeed, the current direction for most people is down.  But you say that's looking at it short term, and we should look at it long term.  Well, how do I know your "long term" isn't just a short segment of and even longer term which is downward? It sounded to me like you were predicting the future with more authority than is possible.

[Brian37 (OP)]

Then do not say it like that. Shit happens do do nothing is what that sounded like.

[SGOS]

I reread my original comment, and I don't see how you got your first impression.  But as long as you understand it now, I'm good with that.

[Berati]

Now having said that, it is also important to not try to set up utopias ourselves.

I completely agree that people often yearn for Utopias and mess things up in attempts to force an unrealistic solution.

We do not need to be like the tea party suggesting a Che revolution or replace our open market. It simply needs to be purged of greed.

While I agree with the essence of your post, I feel you're falling into the trap you outlined.
We will never purge markets of greed, just as we will never purge society of crime, racism, irrational behaviour or any other human failing. The only "solution" is a messy one that involves the hard work of active democratic governance that is subject to constant change. There is no one set of rules we can put in place and then walk away from.

[Solitary]

If we keep looking at secondary causes, and ignore the primary causes we are doomed. The primary cause is ignorance, along with over population with limited resources, with everyone trying to better themselves or survive, and money is the power to do so. Solitary

[Green Bottle]

The primary cause is greed, too many people on this planet only care about themselves and fk everybody else.
The rich and developed countries could wipe out poverty and starvation overnight if they just donated a small percentage of the money they spend each year on arms and ammunition, but they will never do it because war is big business.
So its left to charities to try to make a difference and even though they do their best the problems continue and will do for a long time to come unless there is a serious rethink on how we run this fuckin planet..........

[Solitary]

When I was 14-15 years old and ran away from home without any money I learned a lesson I will never forget: survival is the only rule, and money makes it a lot easier because money talks and bull shit walks. I have survived and prospered because I took whatever jobs I could, and was very, very, lucky to move up from poverty to living with everything I wanted, except for a Bugatti, Ferrari, or other exotic car. Yes, greed is caused by people that love money at any cost, to themselves, or to others.  I don't see anything wrong with greed itself or wanting to be rich, only when it becomes an obsession or contest to see who has the most money and best toys at any cost. Even in this day and age, who really needs more than $10,000,000 to live a very good life?  I'm doing just fine with under $1,000,000 total wealth. Solitary