Author Topic: What are your feelings on the death penalty?  (Read 26854 times)

Offline Shiranu

(No subject)
« Reply #150 on: March 03, 2013, 12:15:20 AM »
Quote
However, the original point still stands: The death penalty doesn't lower the murder rate. In fact, right after an execution, the number of similar crimes increases slightly in the area where the execution was publicized. It does reduce recidivism, though.

Yeah, I agree the death penalty isn't an effective deterent.

Offline Mermaid

Re: Re:
« Reply #151 on: March 03, 2013, 09:33:55 AM »
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Mermaid"
It is wrong to kill people for any reason, IMO.

As an aside -- even in self-defense?  Or the defense of another?
Hm. You got me. I know for a fact that I would feel justified in killing someone in my own defense. You are right. I don't know fr sure about defending another because I have not been in that situation.

Yeah. That kind of invalidates my whole post, doesn't it?
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: Re:
« Reply #152 on: March 03, 2013, 01:06:27 PM »
Quote from: "Mermaid"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Mermaid"
It is wrong to kill people for any reason, IMO.

As an aside -- even in self-defense?  Or the defense of another?
Hm. You got me. I know for a fact that I would feel justified in killing someone in my own defense. You are right. I don't know fr sure about defending another because I have not been in that situation.

Yeah. That kind of invalidates my whole post, doesn't it?
Doesn't invalidate it, just needs an addendum.  Killing another person is always wrong except when they are a direct threat to yourself or another.
Someone locked in prison is not a direct threat.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.  LLAP"
Leonard Nimoy

Re: Re:
« Reply #153 on: March 03, 2013, 01:56:41 PM »
Quote from: "Aroura33"
Doesn't invalidate it, just needs an addendum.  Killing another person is always wrong except when they are a direct threat to yourself or another.
Someone locked in prison is not a direct threat.


That could be construed as moving the goalpost.

Offline Thumpalumpacus

Re: Re:
« Reply #154 on: March 03, 2013, 05:53:46 PM »
Quote from: "Mermaid"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Mermaid"
It is wrong to kill people for any reason, IMO.

As an aside -- even in self-defense?  Or the defense of another?
Hm. You got me. I know for a fact that I would feel justified in killing someone in my own defense. You are right. I don't know fr sure about defending another because I have not been in that situation.

Yeah. That kind of invalidates my whole post, doesn't it?

No, not really, because I get what you're saying, which (I think) is that unavoidable killing is wrong?  

I was just curious about how deeply this opinion ran in you, is all.  Thanks for the plain-spoken answer.

Quote from: "Alaric I"
Quote from: "Aroura33"
Doesn't invalidate it, just needs an addendum.  Killing another person is always wrong except when they are a direct threat to yourself or another.
Someone locked in prison is not a direct threat.

That could be construed as moving the goalpost.

Or it could be construed as someone who has refined their opinion.

I don't share her opinion myself, but I respect anyone honest enough to say, "Y'know, I hadn't thought of that."
<insert witty aphorism here>

Re: Re:
« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2013, 05:57:18 PM »
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Alaric I"

That could be construed as moving the goalpost.

Or it could be construed as someone who has refined their opinion.

I don't share her opinion myself, but I respect anyone honest enough to say, "Y'know, I hadn't thought of that."

Fair point, I guess it didn't look at it that way. My apologies.

Offline Mermaid

(No subject)
« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2013, 06:31:45 PM »
Yeah, it's food for thought.

I guess I do not think it's wrong to kill in all cases and that's kind of disturbing.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Offline Thumpalumpacus

Re:
« Reply #157 on: March 03, 2013, 07:10:51 PM »
Quote from: "Mermaid"
Yeah, it's food for thought.

I guess I do not think it's wrong to kill in all cases and that's kind of disturbing.

Well, we take morality aboard in such a complex manner that it's pretty easy to pick up dissonant elements.  It's good to think about this stuff, though, and I appreciate the good convo, m'self.

Quote from: "Alaric I"
Fair point, I guess it didn't look at it that way. My apologies.

No apologies necessary on my account, bud, but it's appreciated.
<insert witty aphorism here>

Re:
« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2013, 10:54:26 PM »
Quote from: "Plu"
Here's an even nastier one: ask them if they want to become test subjects in exchange for monetary support to a person of their choosing. We could use the test subjects.

(I'm not sure if I'm even comfortable with this idea myself, though.  :-s )

That would open up some very dangerous territory, not to mention the immorality of using human beings as test subjects.

It would be the same as torture.
It would not necessarily be 100% consensual, as many poor people might do so out of desperation and that's borderline coercion.
Companies wanting to do testing would mislead, coerce, etc, in order to get test subjects.
Justice systems wanting to make $$$ from this would be more likely to use broader definitions of 'eligibility' in order to send more inmates into such a program.

We already have a real problem with the private prison industry lobbying for stricter laws in order to imprison more and more people for lesser crimes. More inmates = more $$$, so the incentive to 'create' rather than reduce crime is already growing. I don't think we need to be creating any more monetary incentive to justify more of this than already exists.

Re:
« Reply #159 on: March 05, 2013, 10:27:04 AM »
Quote from: "Plu"
Here's an even nastier one: ask them if they want to become test subjects in exchange for monetary support to a person of their choosing. We could use the test subjects.

(I'm not sure if I'm even comfortable with this idea myself, though.  :-s )
http://zakherys.tripod.com/booksqz.htm#sppge

The politicians and commercial media don't even allow the reliable researchers  to present their work to the majority of the public let alone base their decisions on it. Only those that seek it out will find out about this research.

Re: What are your feelings on the death penalty?
« Reply #160 on: March 05, 2013, 10:39:47 AM »
I'm not sure that too many people expect the death penalty to really be much of a deterent, then again prison in general doesn't seem to be much of a deterent.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=17

Quote
-Among nearly 300,000 prisoners released in 15 states in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years. A study of prisoners released in 1983 estimated 62.5%.
-Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 states in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
-These offenders had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.

Until we start dealing with the real sources, causes, and reasons for crime, all the death penalty, imprisonment, and gun control arguments aren't going to mean a thing or make any real difference. Those topics deal with the last few steps in a very long path....but they're easier to use to rile people up and make laws about so it looks like something's actually being accomplished.
"When you landed on the moon, that was the point when God should have come up and said hello. Because if you invent some creatures and you put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, then you fucking turn up and say, 'Well done.' It's just a polite thing to do." - Eddie Izzard

Re: What are your feelings on the death penalty?
« Reply #161 on: March 05, 2013, 10:48:30 AM »
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"
Until we start dealing with the real sources, causes, and reasons for crime, all the death penalty, imprisonment, and gun control arguments aren't going to mean a thing or make any real difference. Those topics deal with the last few steps in a very long path....but they're easier to use to rile people up and make laws about so it looks like something's actually being accomplished.

Exactly, the politicians and medias aren't interested in educating the public about any issues instead they're too interested in using manipulation tactics to advance their agenda which has little if anything to do with the best interest of the majority of the public.

The statistics you cite are a lot like the ones Singer cited but the best research to indicate cause and effect are the ones that researched in depth in the background of the killers.

Also they need to address social injustice and the fact that many people don't have economic opportunities with wage suppression etc.