My thoughts on wealth, and respect for wealth

[zarus tathra (OP)]

I don't think people should dislike people of wealth, but I don't think people should "respect" wealth, either, at least not to a very strong degree. The simple reason is that one person's wealth doesn't do much to help you unless it's being GIVEN to you. Until that person initiates a transfer of wealth, gives money to something you care about, or intimates that he/she is willing to do the same, that person is basically as useful to you as a hobo.

[Brian37]

Our species is diverse so anything you set up as far as government has to allow for that diversity. Having said that, we are at a point in global history were wealth has too much power. No you cannot rid the world of the private sector. In fact, it is a myth that closed societies ban the private sector. Authoritarian states and theocracies still invest in the global market.
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My only beef with wealth is that the climate is far too much full of people who think money means they know what is best for non business owners. If we are diverse, and we are, they need to know that there is more than one class in society, and a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Workers are humans, not numbers on a page.

[Solitary]

I don't have a problem with wealth, but how much money does one need when they already have $10,000,000, and want more because they are so greedy and could care less how others live because they are so out of touch with them, and their own feelings too? Solitary

[Moralnihilist]

I don't have a problem with wealth, but how much money does one need when they already have $10,000,000, and want more because they are so greedy and could care less how others live because they are so out of touch with them, and their own feelings too? Solitary

I disagree with the last part of this statement. 10 million isn't as much money(to a business owner) as one would think. With wages, overhead, taxes, health insurance, power, water/sewage, trash pick up, and equipment repair/replacement in my 3 SMALL businesses 10 million would last about 2 years and then Id be broke. If you throw in the amount of sponsorships I give out drop that down to 1.5 years.

And then there is something else to be taken into consideration, some people(myself included) are never satisfied. I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Weider several times in my life(for those that don't know he co-founded the International Federation of BodyBuilders (IFBB) he was also the creator of the Mr. Olympia, the Ms. Olympia and the Masters Olympia bodybuilding contests amongst other things.) and the one thing that I took from meeting him is that I want to be bigger than he ever was. For me its not an ego or greed thing, its the challenge I have laid out for myself.

[doorknob]

That's nice and all but there's something wrong with the world when 3% of the population controls most of the wealth. I also find beef with the fact that employers just plain don't want to pay fair wages to hard working employees. I see this going time and time again no appreciation from higher ups to the poor grunts that actually do the work.

I call minimum wage paid slavery because that's really what it is. Yeah its fine for a teenager but many employees are just average joes trying to stay employed at the only thing they know how to do or possibly the only job available to them. Finding work is hard enough finding work that pays a livable wage is even harder.

[stromboli]

That's nice and all but there's something wrong with the world when 3% of the population controls most of the wealth. I also find beef with the fact that employers just plain don't want to pay fair wages to hard working employees. I see this going time and time again no appreciation from higher ups to the poor grunts that actually do the work.

I call minimum wage paid slavery because that's really what it is. Yeah its fine for a teenager but many employees are just average joes trying to stay employed at the only thing they know how to do or possibly the only job available to them. Finding work is hard enough finding work that pays a livable wage is even harder.

Perhaps, but those who are now the perpetrators of the current huge disparity in wages versus the oligarchy are not so much entrperneurs but the grand children of entrepreneurs, people who feel entitled. The strength of the middle class has always been the most important factor in the economic power of a country. By eroding unions and the middle class, they have set about creating the oligarchy we now face. In terms of application, the eroding middle class is much like recreating a pre- renaissance world of feudalism/serfdom where wage slaves are not given the chance to advance economically. Being wealthy is not the key factor. Entitlement is.

The Richard Bransons, Elon Musks and other newly wealthy got that way through innovation and imagination and have not sought to put down their fellows to do so. Becoming wealthy should be about personal challenge and through creative efforts. That is what fueled the Renaissance. And I have every respect for Moral and others who seek to create for themselves wealth based on effort and the application of their ideas in the real world. We need people like that to move us forward, they are an essential ingredient to progress.

[Brian37]

Wealth does not automatically equal morality anymore than race or religion do.

[doorknob]

Right but not every one has access to the same resources to become an entrepreneurs or even if they had the ambition or the know how to do it. Not every one is given the same set of cards to play with. Some people get pure shit of a set up. While I'm not saying that's the wealthy's fault necessarily but their unwillingness to pay fair wages throws fuel on the fire. programs could be put into place that would help also. But no one gives a shit until they fall into that position. 

[stromboli]

Right but not every one has access to the same resources to become an entrepreneurs or even if they had the ambition or the know how to do it. Not every one is given the same set of cards to play with. Some people get pure shit of a set up. While I'm not saying that's the wealthy's fault necessarily but their unwillingness to pay fair wages throws fuel on the fire. programs could be put into place that would help also. But no one gives a shit until they fall into that position. 

But again its about entitlement and not wealth per se. You can cite individuals who used their wealth to help others to climb the ladder.   One example that comes to mind is Lincoln Electric, a company you never hear of. Lincoln is an old company that makes welding equipment. Their business model is profit sharing and has been very successful. Their employees are among the most motivated and have the least sick leave time of virtually any company, they play a part in business decisions and the company is a model of efficiency and success.  There are other better example I am sure.

The point is that certain powerful people want to perpetrate their power and enlarge it, and have no concern for those they employ. The Koch brothers being the prime example. They are 3rd generation, born wealthy and want to disempower the middle and lower classes just to create more wealth for themselves. Again, wealth per se is not the cause so much as the means to do what they want.

[Solitary]

The way Lincoln Electric does business, and Columbia Sports Wear, is by definition communism, and yet people think it and socialism are wrong. Communism: social organization in which goods are held in common.  Solitary

[Moralnihilist]

Right but not every one has access to the same resources to become an entrepreneurs or even if they had the ambition or the know how to do it. Not every one is given the same set of cards to play with. Some people get pure shit of a set up. While I'm not saying that's the wealthy's fault necessarily but their unwillingness to pay fair wages throws fuel on the fire. programs could be put into place that would help also. But no one gives a shit until they fall into that position. 

The only resources I had when I started out was a willingness to be punched in the face for money. It turned out that I could hit people really really hard too. That made me a fairly good Muay Thai fighter. I turned that over MANY years into 1 training gym. Then I hooked up with the UFC for my second gym. Then I just finished construction on my third gym, this one a weights only gym.

I got there by living tight for several years and starting small(literally I rented out a storage locker for the first "gym" when I first started out). Starting out most business failures are due to either poor planning or starting with too much debt. To start a successful business you don't need a huge space, the best equipment, or a shitload of backing cash. All you really need is a good idea and the time to put into it.

[stromboli]

The only resources I had when I started out was a willingness to be punched in the face for money. It turned out that I could hit people really really hard too. That made me a fairly good Muay Thai fighter. I turned that over MANY years into 1 training gym. Then I hooked up with the UFC for my second gym. Then I just finished construction on my third gym, this one a weights only gym.

I got there by living tight for several years and starting small(literally I rented out a storage locker for the first "gym" when I first started out). Starting out most business failures are due to either poor planning or starting with too much debt. To start a successful business you don't need a huge space, the best equipment, or a shitload of backing cash. All you really need is a good idea and the time to put into it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Btw, Lincoln Electric has been accused of being socialistic, but read their business model.


http://changingwinds.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/why-lincoln-electric-may-be-the-model-for-saving-america%E2%80%99s-manufacturing-sector-a-review-of-frank-koller%E2%80%99s-book-%E2%80%9Cspark%E2%80%9D/

Lincoln Electric, founded in 1895 by John C. Lincoln, operates on old-fashioned values: trust, flexibility, loyalty and being paid fairly. Sounds pretty common sense. There’s more. This is a company of some 3,000 employees, who can call the CEO when they have an idea or a suggestion or where management doesn’t have special perks–such as parking spaces or a special cafeteria. Hmmmm. Sounds suspicious. Doesn’t management deserve special perks? Or is that what has been ingrained our collective thinking in recent years? And what has happened to those companies that have enthusiastically embraced this mindset? From boom to bust for many of them. Witness the layoff rampage stemming from the Great Recession.

John Lincoln was only 29, with a wife and two young kids, when he was turfed from his job of building electric motors in Cleveland, Ohio. A financial panic in 1893 had pulled down the U.S. economy (sound familiar?) leaving millions of Americans out of work. Lincoln struck out on his own, taking the gamble to open the Lincoln Electric Company.

Through hard work, constant innovation and good-old American persistence, Lincoln built his company steadily. It was when the gasoline engine surpassed the electric car in the early 1900s that Lincoln realized that the technology he possessed had huge potential. As Frank Koller explains: “The powerful electrical current produced by his motor generator unit could do much more than charge a car battery–it could also create an arc of electricity hot enough to melt steel.”

That is what I'm talking about. Lincoln electric produces the best quality welding equipment at competitive prices and has the highest employee loyalty of any company. This isn't wealth in the traditional sense, but it is success, and at every level.

[Brian37]

I disagree with the last part of this statement. 10 million isn't as much money(to a business owner) as one would think. With wages, overhead, taxes, health insurance, power, water/sewage, trash pick up, and equipment repair/replacement in my 3 SMALL businesses 10 million would last about 2 years and then Id be broke. If you throw in the amount of sponsorships I give out drop that down to 1.5 years.

And then there is something else to be taken into consideration, some people(myself included) are never satisfied. I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Weider several times in my life(for those that don't know he co-founded the International Federation of BodyBuilders (IFBB) he was also the creator of the Mr. Olympia, the Ms. Olympia and the Masters Olympia bodybuilding contests amongst other things.) and the one thing that I took from meeting him is that I want to be bigger than he ever was. For me its not an ego or greed thing, its the challenge I have laid out for myself.

Nope sorry, if you cannot survive off of 10 million you are an idiot. We are not talking about money used to run the business we are talking about the salary of one individual. Any thing that person does on the clock can be written off as a business expense which the company pays for. His personal salary is separate and there is not one place, not even Manhattan where you could not find a place to live or pay your bills on 10 million.

[zarus tathra (OP)]

The way Lincoln Electric does business, and Columbia Sports Wear, is by definition communism, and yet people think it and socialism are wrong. Communism: social organization in which goods are held in common.  Solitary

This implies that state-bureaucratic socialism that you saw under Lenin was anything like those companies, that a state bureaucracy would behave anything like them if it wasn't subject to market pressures and the rule of law.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

I don't hate a single person for the fact that they are wealthy. I've talked to several wealthy individuals and they have been pleasant people for the most part.

What I despise are what some people do to get that wealth, what some people do to keep that wealth, and what some people do to other people just because they have that wealth. What I hate is the culture of "fuck you, got mine" that is currently ingrained among some of the wealthy. It makes me fucking rage that the Waltons are among the richest families in the world, with a company that makes many billions in profits, yet they cost taxpayers several billion dollars a year because they won't pay their employees a living wage.

I don't hate the wealthy at all, I just don't think that sociopaths should be given that much power.