This Is Something Atheists Shouldn't Do...

Started by Nam, July 29, 2014, 07:08:06 PM

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Nam

...in my opinion

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/29/faith-won-over-atheism-judges-unanimously-rule-in-favor-of-911-christian-cross-but-is-the-legal-battle-really-over/

The "cross" wasn't made by someone after-the-fact, it was created by the towers crumbling to rubble. I have never had a problem with it; and the fact Silverman these so many years make this such a big deal makes the perception of atheists nothing but heartless people more evident to the religious.

This was, inevitably, was going to be a loss for Silverman and his group. And, does it really cause anyone here "physical and emotional pain" just seeing it? The crucifix is a hate symbol for me not because of Christianity but for the fact it's literally a torture device; that's its purpose. However, it does not make or give me "physical and emotional pain" seeing it. If it does for Silverman, and those in his group -- why don't they sue every church that displays one in the country?

People like Silverman, in my opinion, though do some good for atheism primarily make us look like cold-hearted people, in the end.

He lost from day one. He knew it. And religious people, primarily Christians, probably see us at a lower level than previously, in my opinion.

I don't care how they see us, think of us, but some of us do not live in nice liberal places like Silverman probably does; it makes it even worse for us.

Christians blamed the supposed actions of a few for killing (or not helping when they could) their Saviour for 2,000+ years -- so, people like Silverman, in their minds, represent us all whether they do, or not.

I think the focus should be on what's right for all not a select few.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

Solitary

When I was on this forum when it was new, a short satirical cartoon was made showing the cross being saved, when I pointed out that God was too busy saving the cross than the people.  :wall: Solitary AKA Kiang then.
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Mister Agenda

It has historical significance, I can't argue that the case wasn't decided rightly. At least the defense didn't argue that it wasn't really a religous symbol.
Atheists are not anti-Christian. They are anti-stupid.--WitchSabrina

Green Bottle

God doesnt exist, but if he did id tell him to ''Fuck Off''

stromboli


Brian37

Bullshit, that cross only represents ONE religion, not all of the dead that died that day. It is the biggest most prominent religious symbol at ground zero. That same city denied permits for atheists to conduct their own 9/11 mourning ceremony. That same city refused to represent a Muslim firefighter who died that day along with all the other firefighters who died that day.

You are taking one event and getting stuck on the moment. Throughout the history of this country courts have dealt with the issue of religious icons on public property, to assume only atheist bring cases to courts to keep Jefferson's wall in tact, is absurd. The case against making the pledge mandatory was brought by a Mormon. The ban on prayer in schools WAS NOT brought by Madelyn Murry O'Hair, she was brought on after the case was filed to bolster the case of the theist who filed it.

When you allow ANY religion constant markings on public property you are setting up social pecking orders. You are allowing the government to favor one religion over another. Tragedy should not be used as a shoehorn to set up social pecking orders. There are no Stars of David the same size of that cross next to it. There are no Muslim Crescent Moons the same size next to it. There are no atom symbols the same size next to it. And even with the National Cemetery in DC it took forever for the government to allow more than Christians and Jews to be buried there.

There was a reason the towers were called "The World Trade Center". They were not called "The Christian Trade Center". American Atheists was not filing that suit to be dicks, they were filing it to say you do not own a monopoly on who gets the biggest venue in a tragedy.8

Over 80 nationalities were Among the dead and all the major religions as well. Our nation having a Christian majority should not negate the deaths of those who were not Christian by making the biggest religious symbol a Cross. It is basically saying Christian death is more special than all the other lives lost that day.



"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
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Nam

#6
Quote from: Brian37 on July 30, 2014, 11:49:36 AM
Bullshit, that cross only represents ONE religion,

It's not a cross, it's rubble shaped like a cross.

QuoteIt is the biggest most prominent religious symbol at ground zero.

Look what Solitary said. Basically, Biblegod was there that day where 2,000+ people died -- it did nothing to save them but it left a rubble-shaped cross.

QuoteThat same city denied permits for atheists to conduct their own 9/11 mourning ceremony. That same city refused to represent a Muslim firefighter who died that day along with all the other firefighters who died that day.

Then they should sue them for that not for rubble shaped like a cross.

QuoteYou are taking one event and getting stuck on the moment.

It sounds like that's what you're doing

QuoteThroughout the history of this country courts have dealt with the issue of religious icons on public property, to assume only atheist bring cases to courts to keep Jefferson's wall in tact, is absurd.

Where did I assume that?

QuoteWhen you allow ANY religion constant markings on public property you are setting up social pecking orders. You are allowing the government to favor one religion over another.

They always have. When the government is made up of one main religion then that religion will be favored over all others. Just like with anything else.

QuoteTragedy should not be used as a shoehorn to set up social pecking orders. There are no Stars of David the same size of that cross next to it. There are no Muslim Crescent Moons the same size next to it. There are no atom symbols the same size next to it. And even with the National Cemetery in DC it took forever for the government to allow more than Christians and Jews to be buried there.

Their gods were off that day.

QuoteThere was a reason the towers were called "The World Trade Center". They were not called "The Christian Trade Center". American Atheists was not filing that suit to be dicks, they were filing it to say you do not own a monopoly on who gets the biggest venue in a tragedy.

They file against losing arguments to make it as if they are doing something. Sometimes they win most times they make all atheists into dicks like them.

QuoteOver 80 nationalities were Among the dead and all the major religions as well. Our nation having a Christian majority should not negate the deaths of those who were not Christian by making the biggest religious symbol a Cross. It is basically saying Christian death is more special than all the other lives lost that day.

Ahh...your rants over...

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

stromboli

Well gee, rant aside, there is another way to look at it. The cross, as Nam said, is the remains of rubble. You can debate all day whether that is a Christian symbol or not, but what it most certainly is, is the remainder of the building. However religiously symbolic you want to make it, it represents a defining moment in American life and history. It is symbolic also in a larger sense that stands for something other than a specific religion.

The rubble itself is ironic in that it denotes a massive failure of our intelligence and our understanding of terrorism and the forces that work against us. You can see it as a Christian symbol or a symbol of the hubris that created it. It is more effective to point that out in the aftermath than to contest it so forcefully as a religious symbol in the first instance.

Solitary

It's still a symbol of Christianity whether it is rubble or not. Why not put a statue of an Eagle if it is to represent the United States, or even a Turkey, which are only in this country?


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_me

aning_of_the_cross
Quote


Brutality of the Cross Although the symbol of the cross appears in much pagan history prior to Jesus, the crucifixion cross has historical meaning due to the fact that crucifixion was a real, historical method of execution. As an instrument of death, the cross was detested by the Jews, so it became a stumbling block for them when considering Jesus. How could the Messiah be executed on a cross? After all, the Greek and Roman Empire executed thousands of criminals and captives in just this manner (Alexander the Great executed two thousand Tyrian captives in this way, after the fall of the city). This form of punishment was usually reserved for such crimes as treason, desertion, robbery, piracy, assassination, and other such crimes. It continued in the Roman empire until the day of Constantine, when it was abolished as an insult to Christianity.

How could God allow this type of horrific death to occur to His only Son? Why did Jesus have to die on the cross? What did he do that deserved this kind of death? Well, let's take a look at the Bible to follow the trail that will lead us to the truth! The Cross Reconciles (Pays) Our Debt The Bible recognizes the truth that all sin must be punished. After all, God is just. And justice requires that wrongs are punished. You know that is true even for us living here on earth. We have to obey the laws or be punished! And God has a set of holy commandments (laws) that must also be obeyed. So, it shouldn't surprise you that God requires this justice of us. The Bible also tells us that we could never pay the price for our sin on our own. Our sin is punishable by death.

So, the cross is the place where Jesus paid the price for us, and in doing so, he united us to God: Ephesians 2:14-16 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. The Cross is Where God Does ALL the Work If we could pay our own penalty, we would eventually become proud and boastful, and confident in our own ability to live our lives apart from God. Maybe that's why God does all the work here.

In the end, HIS effort to save us is all we can ever boast about, and God likes it that way. Maybe that's because He knows that we end up worshipping whatever we boast about. God wants to be the only object of our worship, so His work on the cross is the central focus of our faith: Galatians 6:12-16 Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

The Cross Demonstrates the Power of God to Save Us In the end, the cross is the ultimate demonstration of God's power. After all, we could never have accomplished our salvation on our own. But the cross can be confusing to many people around us who still want to live apart from God. For some of our friends, the idea of a God who would die on a cross fro us is simply crazy. It makes no sense from a worldly perspective! But that shouldn't surprise us. Scripture tells us that a God who loves us like that will blow our minds. That kind of love seems unreasonable, and foolish to those who really want to save themselves: 1 Corinthians 1:17-19 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Some Won't Even Recognize the Cross Maybe that's why non-believers think we're crazy sometimes. Maybe that's why people who want to try to work their way to heaven aren't usually seen wearing crosses around their neck (heck, Mormons won't even place the cross on their place of worship!). The cross is a symbol of God's power; of the work he did to save us. It is the focus of our pride and the symbol of our salvation. Modern spiritual interpretation: The symbol of the cross is seen in two parts bringing in a third: 1. The vertical portion is the symbol of spirit - descending to earth from above. It is the God force of light & love-wisdom. 2. The horizontal section is matter (or man in physical form). 3. At the intersection of the two is man, in the physical, meeting spirit.

The place on the cross where the two intersect is slightly above center at the point of the heart or love. 4. The result of the two intersecting is wholeness; Vertical = Father. Horizontal = Son. The two together is wholeness or Holy Spirit or God made manifest in the physical. The Symbolic meaning of the cross- The symbolic meaning of the cross is our symbol of christianity.... What we believe. God sent his son, Jesus Christ, down to earth. Jesus grew up and later he was crucified on the cross. He was beaten and spit on and just the worst thing that could possible happen to a human being. Jesus was perfect he never sinned but he was still treated badly. He was mocked and made fun of.

Jesus helped those in need, healed people, taught about God, loved his enemies and forgave people of their sins and saved them. Matthew 20:28 says "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many." God loved and loves us so much that he sent his son down and watched him die. John 3:16 also says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. What seperates us from everyone else in our religion is that even though he was crucified he was raised up the dead three days later. That's what christians celebrate on Easter. The resurrection of Jesus Christ.

A Christian cross represents Jesus and how he died on the cross for us. But not all people get a cross tattoo for that specific reason. A cross is a symbol of Christianity basically. If they have a cross tat they're probably a pretty cool person to represent what they believe in. But that's just my personal opinion. Not everybody thinks that, just so you know. A tattoo means whatever you want it to. It can mean a death of a loved one has occurred, the person is religious, or just because that person likes the style. The meaning can also vary greatly depending on the type of cross. There are Celtic, Assyrian, Egyptian, Roman, Maltese crosses, and more.
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Nam

Quote from: Solitary on July 31, 2014, 12:35:46 PM
It's still a symbol of Christianity whether it is rubble or not. Why not put a statue of an Eagle if it is to represent the United States, or even a Turkey, which are only in this country?


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_me

aning_of_the_cross


Because the rubble wasn't put there after-the-fact. If Silverman sued because say, an artist, took some rubble and made a cross out of it and they put that at the site he'd have a case but that's not what happened, so he lost.

If atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc., saw images in rubble like Christians see in toast there would be no argument.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

Desdinova

Even though it was formed from the rubble, xtians have decided that it is a cross, and therefore a symbol.  If the rubble had beed shaped like a giant schlong, I don't think it would be prominently displayed.  Although I may be wrong stranger shit has happened.
"How long will we be
Waiting, for your modern messiah
To take away all the hatred
That darkens the light in your eye"
  -Disturbed, Liberate

Nam

Quote from: Desdinova on July 31, 2014, 04:42:37 PM
Even though it was formed from the rubble, xtians have decided that it is a cross, and therefore a symbol.  If the rubble had beed shaped like a giant schlong, I don't think it would be prominently displayed.  Although I may be wrong stranger shit has happened.

There are other religious artifacts at the memorial; it isn't the only one. It may be the most prominent one but isn't the only one.

-Nam
Mad cow disease...it's not just for cows, or the mad!

Berati

Uh oh, I agree with Nam again.  :biggrin:

Optics do matter and when I see an atheist make a mountain out of a mole hill I just know a few more people will be turned off.

Here is an audio clip from supposedly atheist comic Marc Maron and at the two minute mark he says atheists are more annoying than christians. I don't agree with him but I also wouldn't like this to be seen as the defining trait of atheists. (I've seen his "Thinky Pain" special and he does a whole segment trashing atheists)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hYa63aN7kc
Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

St Giordano Bruno

There would probably be plenty of pieces of wreckage in the shape of an "A"  in memory for all the atheists that died that day. Finding a piece of wreckage in the shape of a cross trimmed down with an oxy welder is no miracle. Wreckage in the shape of the star of David would be a much bigger challenge to find. Moon and crescent star would be even more difficult. 
Voltaire - "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities"

stromboli

Quote from: St Giordano Bruno on August 02, 2014, 06:11:32 AM
There would probably be plenty of pieces of wreckage in the shape of an "A"  in memory for all the atheists that died that day. Finding a piece of wreckage in the shape of a cross trimmed down with an oxy welder is no miracle. Wreckage in the shape of the star of David would be a much bigger challenge to find. Moon and crescent star would be even more difficult. 

But sadly, spaghetti and meatballs just don't last.