Site reality check..

[AllPurposeAtheist (OP)]

Folks, we've lost some good members here for no good reason and I've been considering leaving myself because of the disrespect often shown to each other here. I come here not because I want to argue and insult each other, but because I think of most of you as my friends.
As a group we have a great deal of the general public who hates us for merely being who we are and I come here to find people who I can respect and think of as my friends. Many of you have enriched my life, shown me respect and helped me in some dark periods of my life and it breaks my heart to come here to see us seemingly wanting little more than to tear each other down in very derogatory ways and comments.
One of our more prominent members left here because of the disrespect and outright blatant insults. We've been engaging in questioning character of people who have proven time and time again that they not only command our respect, but have shown genuine compassion for us and intellect.
It's time to reflect on whether we care about our members or not. I come here because you are my friends, not because you're good at breaking people down.

[Solitary]

I don't know who you are talking about, but I miss Sabrina the Witch that was here before on the original forum. And I know others that I don't see here now, which is sad. Like you, I considered them friends like you are to me. Well said by the way.  Solitary

[AllPurposeAtheist (OP)]

Thanks Solitary.. Think about it a moment who I was referring to. I don't want to drop names nilly willy. I think we need to evaluate how we treat each other. It's not 8th grade playing dodgeball here.. We, as a group bring a lot to the table, but lately to many have just knocked everything off the table because of personal grudges or what not.. 

[stromboli]

People come and go for various reasons, but no one should be made to feel unwelcome without cause. To someone who is a long time poster and has made a commitment to the forum, to be demeaned in a personal way is wrong and immature. We all have friends on here and people we don't like so much. There are posters whose posts I won't address because of how I perceive their attitude, but to go out of our way to demean someone in a personal way is wrong.

The internet is a place of anonymity. Some people feel thay can do and say things they otherwise would be chastised for. We get trolls and sock puppets and people who lack integrity, which is sad. But among humans, the same rules of integrity should apply in every instance, even on the internet. That which demeans one among us demeans us all.

We can only hope that one so damaged can see that the majority of us here are above that, and choose either to stay or return, as the case applies. there are people gone that we miss, and we are the lesser for their absence. And likewise we should comport ourselves in a way that raises our level of integrity and makes us all better, rather than the opposite.

Drunkenshoe has been given cause to feel demeaned and unwelcome, and it is sad. She PM'd me a few weeks ago concerning a personal issue, and I in turn was impressed by her forthrightness and her sense of balance, and her intelligence. If she has been given cause to leave for unfair personal insults, it is wrong and shameful. Shameful to the forum, and everyone connected with it.

This forum is important. It matters, in both a personal sense and in the larger scheme of things. We are a voice of sanity in a world filled with craziness. Hopefully we can see the larger picture, and work by our treatment of others here to maintain and improve the quality of the forum overall.

[Green Bottle]

Afternoon Apa  Solitary an Stromboli, iv'e not been here long but its been good for me so far, a good bunch overall.
And in that short time iv'e formed opinions about most members iv'e seen posting through what they say and how they express themselves, and i have to say that most of u are good ppl.
I also wont drop any names but there are one or two that i wont give the time of day to, anyway, getting back to the topic, it seems that a certain member has left us and i for 1 am disappointed if its troo.
This poster in my opinion wasnt scared to say what they really thought, strong opinions and an ''attitude, which i happen to admire and also a sense of humour in some situations.
We all know the thread where all the trouble started and certain things were said some of them downrite rude, and also one comment in particular that our ' friend mite have taken offense to in particular, im not defending anybody here and we all know that things can be said in the heat of the moment and not always thought through, but i also thought that this comment was said in a jokey maybe flippant manner and not meant to be taken seriously.
But taken along with other things that had been said on the thread in question it was maybe the
final straw so to speak .
I was enjoying the debate on said thread until all of a sudden it seemed to degenerate into insults and name calling and wasnt nice to witness.
Its happend on a couple of threads since iv'e been here and its no good, there's no need for it.
Healthy debate is good and and lets have more of the same i say, but once it descends into pettyness the debate is over..............................

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Drunkenshoe has been given cause to feel demeaned and unwelcome

In my experience Shoe felt that way about pretty much any issue where someone had the nerve to disagree with her. She would even shout at me when I mostly agreed with her, and after the first couple times I started going out of my way to avoid most of the threads she started arguing in. It's disappointing that such a long-time member has left, but you'll have to forgive me if I'm not too disappointed.

As to the topic itself, this has been going on since at least the day I first arrived. I almost left the site within the first month for how people jumped down my throat during the old George Zimmerman threads, and it continued to be bad enough after that to the point where I just ignore most of the big argument threads. The last one I really participated in was that Conception thread, which is pretty much where I finally lost it. Not my proudest moment, that's for sure.

My biggest frustration is with the moderators, though. I feel that many of these runaway arguments -particularly the ones that end in bans- could be avoided if there were just a wee bit more enforcement of the "no flaming" policy.

[AllPurposeAtheist (OP)]

Thanks Strom.. Breaking each other down serves no purpose of any benefit for this site or for the members. I could mention members wronged, but then I would equally be obliged to mention all the offenders who wronged them, but I have no interest in playing blame games and pointing fingers and would have to point at the mirror. Most of us are guilty to a large extent.
Flaming each other and throwing insults with no regard to others feelings..  Is that the site anyone wants to see? I sure don't.
We've all got opinions, that's fine. If you want your opinion to carry any weight insulting people with opposing opinions only degrades your views.  If you want respect you have to show it. Respect is earned, not just given by birthright.

OK, things to do today so till later.. Adios.

[Bibliofagus]

Yeah, but how often do you crap and shit?

Kidding aside (leo is awesome), a few thoughts:

I was a new member once. And I joined because at that moment AF.com was the most feisty environment around. There was light moderation, idiots lasted longer here than in other places so I got to read more clever responses to them. And more mods used to just participate more in these threads so everybody was on the same page in a way. I'm reading too little 'Still not done with the idiot, oh well carry on' posts from moderators. Instead I read a lot of 'Goodbye idiot - hammer'. I'm not sure but I even think there used to be a rule among mods that they couldn't ban a chew toy on their own if they had engaged him in debate.

Some new members come here to debate theist claims... And not only new members now that I think about it, Reimu, whom I think is one of the best posters here, only shows up when a theist gets some attention. New members might have seen Atheist Experience (in my case) or are in a situation where they never get to really respond to theist claims because in real life - for most people - this is a hard or stupid thing to do. I mean: how many times have we advised young kids to not come out as an atheist to their parents?

Most of us probably think this should be a safe place. I'm saying we are missing the chew toys to actually feel like a safe place for new members. If they click 'active discussions', what do you want them to see?

Also: APA - I've said it and meant it when you felt down, not sure how you feel now, but you are an inspiring person. I hope I will continue to read the stuff you post and kudo's for creating this thread.

[wolf39us]

Stricter rule enforcement has been brought up to the moderators last week for this very issue.  I also believe too many of our own members have been throwing around insults far too much.  We want people to feel welcome here and that hasn't been happening as much as I'd like.

Saying shit like "you're a fucking idiot" doesn't advance your point / argument and I don't think it's necessary personally.  Suggestions are welcome by anyone who wants to contribute.

[the_antithesis]

Folks, we've lost some good members here for no good reason

This is a new definition of the phrase "good members" that I was previously unaware.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I'm not going to presume to tell the staff here anything as I've been a regular on here for a number of years now and I've enjoyed contributing. Not here so much anymore owing to being staff at the .org site and also other things going on

Makes me sad to think of you guys at each other's throats about things, but as far back as I remember we were always like that,albeit perhaps to a lesser degree.

Roadblocking flaming might be the way to go, and quorum on bans could be another. But again, I'm not going to presume on wolf et al here. After all, AF.com would have been long gone without them, and many of The other regulars here.

[stromboli]

I wasn't involved in and didn't see the particular discussion/sitaution as it evolved. I am not pointing fingers at anyone, and I fully realize it gets heated on here. My only point is to not do or say things that are deliberately demeaning and to respect the intelligence of the posters.

[Solitary]

I'm not going to presume to tell the staff here anything as I've been a regular on here for a number of years now and I've enjoyed contributing. Not here so much anymore owing to being staff at the .org site and also other things going on

Makes me sad to think of you guys at each other's throats about things, but as far back as I remember we were always like that,albeit perhaps to a lesser degree.

Roadblocking flaming might be the way to go, and quorum on bans could be another. But again, I'm not going to presume on wolf et al here. After all, AF.com would have been long gone without them, and many of The other regulars here.

Hi Fidel! Go back to Cuba old friend! I thought maybe it was you that left recently. He! He! Solitary AKA Kiang

[aitm]

Going on my seventh year soon, not that is relevant. This is actually the first forum I ever joined. Before that I was frequented chat forums like Everywhere and About for about 6 years. I don't know how other forums operate but I know my first day here I was attacked quite quickly merely for suggesting a person does not need to be a flag waver for atheism, because "It was untrue to yourself you fucking moronic pussy".
   This was when Buck and HBA and FE and many others were in charge. Flaming then was far more what we call it now. This place has ebbs and flows, we get yelled at for banning xians too early, yelled at for not, yelled at for turning this place into a library where we can't even disagree loudly and of course yelled at for not stopping someone from calling someone else a fuckturd.

They come they go, they may come back, or not. We cannot be everything to everyone and still allow us the desire to be able to call bullshit. Everyone of us has done it so we can all take the responsibility ourselves as well. Every few months or so we have another person asking for us to be nicer...then some dipshit walks in and spends two weeks poking everybody, in a very civil and nice manner until it blows.

This place has lost a lot of good people and some not so good. Many times for no reason at all. Some for little reason. Again, I have little experience with other forums but I would suspect is it similar elsewhere. Those of us who have invested in this place, both monetarily and in great amounts of time, try to maintain what we think the majority wants. A good vibrant place where we can talk peaceably or argue vehemently without being constantly censured. Can we as mods do better? Sure. As Wolf mentioned we have been talking for a couple weeks now about tightening up the "abuse". Though I doubt some of you will consider "abuse" what many others may.

All we can do is to start again from right now. This forum will survive with or without many of us, ( I hope) we either fight to make it better or simply leave for a "greener grass". And always remember, there are no untouchables here. If you have objections to a member or "staff" you are always welcome to complain to the council. Those complaints are taken seriously. I hope to see you all tomorrow.

[Solitary]

It's very hard on the internet to know when someone is kidding or being sarcastic. I learned in the past to put SmOff when kidding around, and SmOn when I'm being serious. I know when people I know being here awhile when they are or not, but anyone that is new would not be aware they were just kidding. I think this, unfortunately, could have happened and could have been avoided. It doesn't help when four (Same Jerk!) new people come here that were previously banned that add fuel to the fire trying to get each of us at our throats and trying to shut down the forum because they belong to a club where they earn points by disrupting a site by trolling or spamming, and can win prizes, like an upgraded video driver. Believe me, it happens. Usually when anything bad happens in this world money is involved. I'm too old now, and this site is where I learn and meet new people I like, or not, but it is a big part of my life, and would hate to see it go away, even if it is with a bunch of stupid atheists.  Solitary