So What Do Conservatives Actually Want to Conserve?

Started by Bobby_Ouroborus, February 20, 2013, 05:16:58 PM

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Jason Harvestdancer

Quote from: "Brian37"How about this, since humans are diverse and complex and not as simple as one word political or economic monocromatic solutions, why don't we accept we have a pluralistic society and pluralistic economy.

What I cannot stand is one class of people think because they have money they get to write all of our laws.

I see a bit of irony there.
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commonsense822

Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"
Quote from: "Brian37"How about this, since humans are diverse and complex and not as simple as one word political or economic monocromatic solutions, why don't we accept we have a pluralistic society and pluralistic economy.

What I cannot stand is one class of people think because they have money they get to write all of our laws.

I see a bit of irony there.

Agreed

AllPurposeAtheist

The more I read on it the more I lean toward Marxist ideas, not necessarily Marxism. There indeed is class struggle with the bourseois keeping its filthy boot on the necks of the proletariat.
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Davka

Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"The more I read on it the more I lean toward Marxist ideas, not necessarily Marxism. There indeed is class struggle with the bourseois keeping its filthy boot on the necks of the proletariat.
Marx was dead-on. People think today of the working conditions in the late 1800s and shudder, but only rarely seem to connect the very real oppression of the poor with the rise of labor unions and demands for fair treatment.

The trouble seems to be that Marx had an excellent grasp of the problem, but no practical solution. It has taken modern socialist democracies like Denmark to show the way towards egalitarianism.

AllPurposeAtheist

His solution was violent revolution and Denmark saw its share with the Nazi's in WWII..
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Bobby_Ouroborus

Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"His solution was violent revolution and Denmark saw its share with the Nazi's in WWII..

Actually his solution was let capitalism eat itself. The problem with Marxist theory is that Marxism cannot change human nature. It's impossible to implement.

AllPurposeAtheist

Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"His solution was violent revolution and Denmark saw its share with the Nazi's in WWII..

Actually his solution was let capitalism eat itself. The problem with Marxist theory is that Marxism cannot change human nature. It's impossible to implement.
The mere fact it hasn't happened yet doesn't make it impossible
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Davka

Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"His solution was violent revolution and Denmark saw its share with the Nazi's in WWII..
If I'd lived in Tsarist Russia, my solution would have been the same. It's the solution a whole lot of nations implemented on the road to self-rule. If the ruling class won't listen to reason, it's pretty much the only way forward.

But I don't really think Marx saw revolution as the solution - just a way to end the oppression. His dreams for a communist nation were naive and utopian. He figured out that the rich and powerful screw everyone else over for gain and rig the system against the working class, but he never really figured out a workable alternative. "Everybody share everything" doesn't work, and handing the means of production to the state is no different from leaving it in the hands of the ruling class.

Turns out that a state which levels the playing field by reducing the gap between the richest and poorest, but leaves the means of production in the hands of business, actually works pretty well. Tax the fuck out of everyone and guarantee health care, safety, equal justice, a decent salary, etc. by re-distribution. The tax rate in Denmark is something like 70% on average, but the working class earns ~$80k a year, with doctors and lawyers making maybe twice that, and CEOs 3 or 4 times. Keep the incentive to work, but take away the incentive to be a total greedpig. And remove the fear of homelessness, starvation, and bankruptcy. People tend to be pretty happy when nobody's getting fucked-over too badly.

Plu

Denmark sounds like an interesting place.

WitchSabrina

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"[...]  explain to us all what "Conserve", "Conservative" and "Conservatism" actually mean since Websters got it all wrong.

To what point?  You already have your preconceived notions and won't brook differences of opinion; that much is obvious from the snarling tone you have in this thread.


Last time I checked - that's allowed.

just sayin............
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Fidel_Castronaut

Quote from: "Plu"Denmark sounds like an interesting place.

It's not all roses.

Denmark has been plagued with extreme right wingers for several years now.

The DPP (effectively their right wing party, like the BNP here in the UK) took 12% of the vote and 22 seats in 2001 and was actually included in their national government through a coalition, which led to the severest immigration policies in the EU. Now of course, some might argue that was a good thing, but right wing nationalism has been a feature of Danish politics for decades.

This could be a symptom of wider right wing movements throughout Europe, especially those that latch onto Islam (or rather anti-Islam sentiments).

Annoyingly, right wingers in Europe are raising a good issue but doing it in such a terrible way that it makes it tabboo to question the encroachment of religion on secular liberal values. They basically chant "we hate muslims" or "we hate islam", which then reinforces the idea that anyone who questions Islamic (or indeed any other religious body) interference in policy structures in parliament is a racist (another annoying misrepresentation as religions are races).

So yeah, right wingers in Denmark and elsewhere are a problem, destroying legitimate arguments through the promotion of their own silly, bizzare, agenda.
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Outnumbered

Too bad the Zeitgeist proposal is beyond current evolution of man. If you haven't seen the original film and the new addendum film (Netflix has them) they make too much sense. It's a real eye opener to see just how bad we have been getting screwed all along.

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"The problem with Marxist theory is that Marxism cannot change human nature. It's impossible to implement.

Hear, hear.  Not coincidentally, it's the same reason why pure libertarianism cannot work, as well.

Both systems of thought ignore human nature.
<insert witty aphorism here>

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"[...]  explain to us all what "Conserve", "Conservative" and "Conservatism" actually mean since Websters got it all wrong.

To what point?  You already have your preconceived notions and won't brook differences of opinion; that much is obvious from the snarling tone you have in this thread.


Last time I checked - that's allowed.

just sayin............

I wasn't saying it wasn't allowed.  I was saying that when someone's preconceptions are made that obvious, arguing against them seems pointless.
<insert witty aphorism here>

commonsense822

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"The problem with Marxist theory is that Marxism cannot change human nature. It's impossible to implement.

Hear, hear.  Not coincidentally, it's the same reason why pure libertarianism cannot work, as well.

Both systems of thought ignore human nature.

Yeah Libertarianism definitely has some good aspects to it.  But I completely agree that pure libertarianism is bunk.  For that matter really any pure political ideology is bound to fail though.