Epic Win

[commonsense822]

I have a question:

The evidence heavily favors the theory that the OT was written by the people of the time so that they could claim divine warrant for taking by force land, possessions, and people from those nasty others across the river, as well as to set up an oppressive system of rule which preyed on the peoples' natural fears of ignorance.

But why do you think they kept referring to themselves as unfaithful to God, and talking about their own deeds as whoredom, and claiming that God would abandon them, and judge and destroy them, and seek after the nasty other people across the river? Why did they cherish the portents implied in the stories of people like Amos who, upon God's prompting, took a prostitute for a wife? Why all this if they wanted to be seen as chosen and superior to their neighbors - if that's what one thinks their motive was? This is mainly found in the prophets, but really it's found throughout the OT, including the chapter in question here.

Just wondering because it doesn't seem to fit the motive.

I think your premise about their motive is completely wrong. Religions evolved alongside Homo Sapiens for a reason (well, a number of reasons, but still). People really truly believed that nonsense, for the most part. When the Universe is big and scary and threatening and you have very little control over or understanding of the forces that surround you, you will cling to whatever you can get - even if it's just the illusion of control. Human pattern-seeking plus confirmation bias quickly supplies "evidence" of all sorts of supernatural bullshit, from gods to magic chants to tree spirits and succubi.

Maybe a few devious shits figured out early on that it was all a crock, but the evidence seems to suggest that these stories were told and embellished and re-told and eventually written down because the people had a real reverence for them. They were the stories that provided comfort to those particular tribes, the stories of their ancestors. 'Our God is the biggest badass on the block and you'd better listen up' is a comforting lie, and 'we are but worms who cannot hope to measure up to his perfect standards and so he punishes us' explains why your tribe isn't lording it over the rest of the world, seeing as how your god is so badass and all.

If you're going to create a massive pattern of societal self-delusion, you need to account for the anomalies that will inevitably occur.

This

[Brian37]

Wait....soo......

No one else cuts up there concubines into 12 pieces after offering them up to be raped by a group of angry, drunken men in place of your daughter?

Awww shit, no wonder people have been looking at me weird at the landfill.

Thats how people will look at you when you take dating advice from Ted Bundy.

Could be worse. It could have been Buffalo Bill.

It rubs the skin on it's lotion or else it gets the ABBA.

[Alaric I]

It rubs the skin on it's lotion or else it gets the ABBA.

NOOOO anything but that!! I can't get this spot on my back, can you help?

[Sleeper]

I have a question:

The evidence heavily favors the theory that the OT was written by the people of the time so that they could claim divine warrant for taking by force land, possessions, and people from those nasty others across the river, as well as to set up an oppressive system of rule which preyed on the peoples' natural fears of ignorance.

But why do you think they kept referring to themselves as unfaithful to God, and talking about their own deeds as whoredom, and claiming that God would abandon them, and judge and destroy them, and seek after the nasty other people across the river? Why did they cherish the portents implied in the stories of people like Amos who, upon God's prompting, took a prostitute for a wife? Why all this if they wanted to be seen as chosen and superior to their neighbors - if that's what one thinks their motive was? This is mainly found in the prophets, but really it's found throughout the OT, including the chapter in question here.

Just wondering because it doesn't seem to fit the motive.

I think your premise about their motive is completely wrong. Religions evolved alongside Homo Sapiens for a reason (well, a number of reasons, but still). People really truly believed that nonsense, for the most part. When the Universe is big and scary and threatening and you have very little control over or understanding of the forces that surround you, you will cling to whatever you can get - even if it's just the illusion of control. Human pattern-seeking plus confirmation bias quickly supplies "evidence" of all sorts of supernatural bullshit, from gods to magic chants to tree spirits and succubi.

Maybe a few devious shits figured out early on that it was all a crock, but the evidence seems to suggest that these stories were told and embellished and re-told and eventually written down because the people had a real reverence for them. They were the stories that provided comfort to those particular tribes, the stories of their ancestors. 'Our God is the biggest badass on the block and you'd better listen up' is a comforting lie, and 'we are but worms who cannot hope to measure up to his perfect standards and so he punishes us' explains why your tribe isn't lording it over the rest of the world, seeing as how your god is so badass and all.

If you're going to create a massive pattern of societal self-delusion, you need to account for the anomalies that will inevitably occur.

You sort of answered my question toward the end there, but if you're at all familiar with the OT scriptures it becomes painfully evident that there was no "We'd kick your ass but God is punishing us right now" kind of chatter. Most of the punishment wasn't even for "right now" - it was for future generations. It's language of slaughter and famine, dashing their babies against rocks, their enemies writing on the walls with their blood (many passages mention how the Israelites would be massacred and subjugated by nations that were still their enemies), the temples crumbling, the villages burning, people wishing they weren't born, mothers wishing they were barren, and so on - awful, horrifying, disgusting, inhumane, detestable language (but nothing new for Yahweh, I know).

I know they did pass down the stories to successive generations, but it's hard to imagine why they would want to. Think of a kindly old elder reading a passage from Ezekiel and saying, "So you've got that to look forward to kids."

I think this is important to understand where their minds were and why they would mercilessly and heartlessly condemn themselves and their own posterity. What purpose did that serve?

[Brian37]

It rubs the skin on it's lotion or else it gets the ABBA.

NOOOO anything but that!! I can't get this spot on my back, can you help?

Waterboarding isn't enough, comic book costume jumpsuits and capes for you!

[Alaric I]

It rubs the skin on it's lotion or else it gets the ABBA.

NOOOO anything but that!! I can't get this spot on my back, can you help?

Waterboarding isn't enough, comic book costume jumpsuits and capes for you!

OOO, I wanna be Batman!!

[aitm]

But why do you think they kept referring to themselves as unfaithful to God, and talking about their own deeds as whoredom, and claiming that God would abandon them, and judge and destroy them

I think it is pretty obvious, because despite all the glorious bull shit the priests were laying on them bad shit kept happening and the only way to justify this to them in light of them being "the chosen" was to blame them for fucking up. When there is a drought the priests can't say god did it without giving them a damn good reason. You are fuck-ups!

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have a question:

The evidence heavily favors the theory that the OT was written by the people of the time so that they could claim divine warrant for taking by force land, possessions, and people from those nasty others across the river, as well as to set up an oppressive system of rule which preyed on the peoples' natural fears of ignorance.

But why do you think they kept referring to themselves as unfaithful to God, and talking about their own deeds as whoredom, and claiming that God would abandon them, and judge and destroy them, and seek after the nasty other people across the river? Why did they cherish the portents implied in the stories of people like Amos who, upon God's prompting, took a prostitute for a wife? Why all this if they wanted to be seen as chosen and superior to their neighbors - if that's what one thinks their motive was? This is mainly found in the prophets, but really it's found throughout the OT, including the chapter in question here.

Just wondering because it doesn't seem to fit the motive.

Stockholm Syndrome.

[Brian37]

OOO, I wanna be Batman!!

No, Bjorn in Mamma Mia.

[Alaric I]

I have a question:

The evidence heavily favors the theory that the OT was written by the people of the time so that they could claim divine warrant for taking by force land, possessions, and people from those nasty others across the river, as well as to set up an oppressive system of rule which preyed on the peoples' natural fears of ignorance.

But why do you think they kept referring to themselves as unfaithful to God, and talking about their own deeds as whoredom, and claiming that God would abandon them, and judge and destroy them, and seek after the nasty other people across the river? Why did they cherish the portents implied in the stories of people like Amos who, upon God's prompting, took a prostitute for a wife? Why all this if they wanted to be seen as chosen and superior to their neighbors - if that's what one thinks their motive was? This is mainly found in the prophets, but really it's found throughout the OT, including the chapter in question here.

Just wondering because it doesn't seem to fit the motive.

Stockholm Syndrome.

Possibly, but I think it's simpler than that.  I think it's as easy as instilling fear.  The first peoples to believe would stay in line because of fear, whereas today it's as easy as teaching it from the beginning.  Think about it this way, if I placed a rule on you would you be more apt to follow it if I were beat you or if I was to say "It's ok, just don't let it happen again."?  I think this is why there is a change between the OT and the NT.  By the time the NT came around religion was so much impressed on the masses that fear was no longer needed.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have a question:

The evidence heavily favors the theory that the OT was written by the people of the time so that they could claim divine warrant for taking by force land, possessions, and people from those nasty others across the river, as well as to set up an oppressive system of rule which preyed on the peoples' natural fears of ignorance.

But why do you think they kept referring to themselves as unfaithful to God, and talking about their own deeds as whoredom, and claiming that God would abandon them, and judge and destroy them, and seek after the nasty other people across the river? Why did they cherish the portents implied in the stories of people like Amos who, upon God's prompting, took a prostitute for a wife? Why all this if they wanted to be seen as chosen and superior to their neighbors - if that's what one thinks their motive was? This is mainly found in the prophets, but really it's found throughout the OT, including the chapter in question here.

Just wondering because it doesn't seem to fit the motive.

Stockholm Syndrome.

Possibly, but I think it's simpler than that.  I think it's as easy as instilling fear.  The first peoples to believe would stay in line because of fear, whereas today it's as easy as teaching it from the beginning.  Think about it this way, if I placed a rule on you would you be more apt to follow it if I were beat you or if I was to say "It's ok, just don't let it happen again."?  I think this is why there is a change between the OT and the NT.  By the time the NT came around religion was so much impressed on the masses that fear was no longer needed.

Well, yeah -- that's the very essence of Stockholm Syndrome:  "I could do this to you ... but no, we'll just talk instead, because I like you, despite the fact I'm holding you hostage."

[aitm]

I still think its far easier than that. Try to convince people that a god takes care of you as long as you follow his rules is rather simple. When good things happen you are good, but you keep a close eye on things that are not good so you have a steady supply of "you fucked up" shit when old god doesn't produce the fatted lamb or olive tree or paradise. Its pretty damn easy when the target audience are morons.

[Worldshatter]

Reading the Bible will make you an atheist... when you see the evil, abuse, sexism, homophobia, bigotry, and generally immoral practices that it not only encourages but DEMANDS from believers in order to avoid eternal punishment in a pit of fire you realize that all people are doing are cherry picking the bits that make them feel good and leaving the rest or dismissing it as a "different time" that you realize that this supposed " all - loving" god is actually the most evil dictator ever to not exist.

[dawiw]

Most of the Christians do not read the Bible.

Even myself, I choose the best parts...

We pick and choose all the time, just like the food we eat.

[Ultra Cat]

I'm going to take a crack at Fungus's original question about why the OT seems to be so filled with stories of people pissing God off (sorry - I'm new to this forum and don't really know how to quote, yet). I was a biblical studies major for a while before I switched to physics (and then I became an atheist), just to establish my bona fides.

The OT is an interesting "book", because the whole point of it is to explain why Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians (it has been many years since I studied all of this, so my details may be a bit off - just a warning). If you look at the bible, the first story is about Adam and Eve going against God's rules and what is their punishment - exile. This idea is then repeated with Cain and Abel. Fast forward to the story of Moses. The Israelites started to worship an idol and what is their punishment - exile. This theme shows up many times throughout the OT. So, once this idea is firmly established (break the rules and get exiled), then there is the laying down of God's commandments in the first five books (613 in all), followed by a telling of all the times the people of Israel pissed God off by breaking these commandments. In the end, all of God's rules are broken, and their punishment is - exile from Israel. The OT is essentially a giant mea culpa for an entire nation (and an attempt to explain how God's chosen people could lose the promised land). At least that is what I recall - college was a long time ago . . .

I hope this all makes sense!