Should America support Israel?

[Dick The Giant]

if we lose Israel, there will be no democracy in the Middle East!

[Shiranu]

Has it ever occurred to you, Shiranu that there is something really wrong with that while all those Holocaust museums built everywhere, showing in excruciating detail of the genocide European Jews were subjected to, BUT NONE of the Native American Museums tell the horror stories of the biggest, longest standing genocide known in recent human history; what has been done to those people, who are successfully wiped out from the face of the world?

A. The majority of that happened "long" ago, before any one who survived those events would have gone on to create a museum. On the other-hand there are still people living who lived during the peak of the Holocaust.
B. It was a foreign government and pretty much the biggest event to happen in the 1900s... I would be far more shocked if it wasn't a huge industry, considering it is pointing out someone else's sins and not our own.
C. Really... NO museums point out the genocide of the Native Americans? None? That is a bold statement, considering I have been to one in West Texas. Are the major museums saying that... I honestly don't know, having never been to a major museum that covered anything outside of Egyptian, Aeronautics or NASA-related technology.

Has it ever occurred to you that why whenever a racist anti,-semitist fuck spews a bullshit about how Holocaust didn't exist blah blah...etc everyone stands up like wind up toy and start to curse him, BUT no one stands up to say 'Are you aware that our State has been rejecting a genocide for hundreds of years?'

Considering no one I know denies that the mass slaughter of Indians occurred... yeah, that really is not a shock to me that no one stands up to say, "Dude... seriously?"

And in both New Mexico and Texas State we have learned about it in anthropology classes, so it's apparently not so controversial that universities don't teach it. Perhaps its regional, but New Mexico was actually VERY aware of the genocide against Natives as well as the current shitty conditions they live in.

This is the genocide policy of USA. And only reason that Jewish Holocaust RECOGNISED AND MATTERS, because it is BENEFICIAL AND PROFITABLE.

So forget Sri Lanka and Africa...there is nothing there.

Uh... yeah... that's how capitalism works. The Holocaust museums use to rake in huge dollars, now not so much... alot of them have become abandoned or attacked by anti-Semites (for example in El Paso there was one just recently burned down with Swastikas spray painted nearby) because it's not a big business anymore.

If the U.S. government were to play the Holocaust card, you give Americans FAR too much credit... no one gives a shit anymore. No one gives a shit about genocide anywhere, even the one's happening today... you really think the average American cares one way or another what happened to the Jews in the 30s and 40s?

I don't disagree with you on alot of things about the U.S. governments involvement in the ME, but you are giving the average American FAR too much credit in thinking they give a shit one way or another about Israel.

If the gov't was to say, "We are stopping all aide to Israel immediately!", the response would either be "Good, why are we sending money to other countries!" or "Who is Israel?"

If the gov't was to say, "We are increasing all aide to Israel!" the response would either be, "Boo, why are we helping other countries" or, "Oh, are they starving or something? That's in Africa, right? Do they have AIDs?".

[Shiranu]

Yeah because that's what's stated or meant here. Are you a new troll?

Yeah he is.

[Shiranu]

I'm sorry, I honestly just don't see where we fundamentally disagree other than you place more blame on, or at least its perceived as, putting more blame on the West than I do. Just as you say, "I do blame the Arab League, but I blame the West as well" I am saying the counter point... "I do blame the West, but I blame the Arab League as well".

My problem is the human right violation reports which ARE BASED ON FACTS. My problem is that powerful policies created by certain zones that is designed to prevent any resolution something that has been discussed for a long time and repeatedly manipulated by USA. My problem is the fact that a country works on a war economy dictates who is to live and who is to die with obvious racist, religious crusades marketed as the exact opposite of it which it citizens believe in from atheist to religious zealot in some manner.

See, and this is where it gets me; you could literally replace USA with AL/Hamas, and think of this quote as only a statement about Palestine, and it would make the exact same amount of sense.

We are arguing over an issue that doesn't really exist; you blame both sides, I blame both sides, it's just we are perceiving the other as being harsher on "the other team" than they are "their team" and going from there.

So Jewish Holocaust would not mean what it is now after all genocide survivors are dead?

Sorry, I did not elaborate on that enough...

The Holocaust happened less than a hundred years ago, which means there are surviving people who were full adults as well as their children who have a very direct emotional tie to the cause than there are for the Indian genocides, which started some 500 years ago. While it may be different in the rest of the world, for Americans that is too long ago to care about.  If it didn't happen within our parents life time, who cares?

As for the Armenians; the children of the genocide families still live, though. For the natives, they have to go to their great-great grandparents to have relatives that lived during the peak of the genocide. Time generally makes people just not care as much as they use to. You have exceptions with feuds that go pretty far back, but even then at most it is generally 300 years at most...

But it happened too long ago, next year wit will be a century old. Too long ago, Let's toss it. sarc/

In a generation or two, quite possibly, although it depends on culture; I have found that Middle Easterners, Asians, Africans... pretty much anyone that isn't European... tend to care about their cultural history more-so than the West.

No, they do not. They are showing the beauty of their native art, their beliefs. Not how they were annihilated. There is nothing in those museums that would pass the responsibility of a genocide history.

Dallas has an American Indian Genocide Museum. Houston has an Native American Genocide Museum. Again, I can only speak for local museums, but I can think of two that are purely dedicated to the NA-Genocide, structured just the same as Holocaust museums, and I would more than assume that other states have them.

You are the one keep giving reasons for Israeli policy and the support it gets from USA with how people think; how they are just protecting themselves; how that it is their right...

You have clearly never read my posts on Israel, then. I have never supported the illegal actions of Israel (i.e. - the settlements, the intentional targeting of civilian groups with the intent to kill 1-2 terrorists within them, segregation [although the average Palestinian will have more rights under an Israeli gov't than a Hamas gov't]), I have only supported the right for them to be there, mostly living on land acquired legally and morally, and therefor have the right to defend themselves. If they commit war crimes then they should be held accountable for it; if they commit human rights violations, then they should be held accountable for it. I think the Likud party is a party of many terrorists, because not that long ago they were a terrorist organization.

That is about as far as I concede; any further and pretty much all you can ask from me is to say that Israel should either stand back at let Hamas kill everyone of them without a fight, or Israelis should simply pack their bags and leave the country.

And as for the support of the US, I have never said anything about they should receive support; I clearly stated earlier (I believe in this thread) that the US has no obligation, the most they should do is sell arms and equipment for a profit, maybe give a discount since they are an "ally", but not send support.

You are so busy accusing me of just going along with the American propaganda that you are creating for me points and positions I have never made or held.

While the Native American Genocide legitimized America's bad policies is interesting, and something I am mostly agreeing with, it is not particularly relevant to the topic at hand so I won't go to deep into that.

They are living in corporate democracy based on far right.

That is all America has ever been, except during the early post-colonial days it was the landholders and intelligentsia instead of corporations. And honestly, I believe the average American IS aware of it at some level, they simply don't have the power to do anything about it and it's much easier to just put your head down and enjoy consumerism rather than worry about it.

[stromboli]

I wrote a long post discussing the issues here. Then I dumped it. Fuck the Middle East. Nuke it and every nation in it out of existence. Problem solved.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Read the topic, meh'd.

Honestly I'm not pro or anti Israel. Not that I'm apathetic about the matter, but I see it rather as 2 gigantic retards slugging each other, while we have to somehow play referee when it isn't even our fight to begin with. If it isn't clear yet it should be: everything we do in that region results in a giant fucking headache for us. We'll get criticized if we do something, we'll get criticized if we do nothing. If we provide military assistance to one side is imperialism, if we try to set up negotiations we're bullying the weaker/more foreign/browner side, if we do nothing we're sitting by and letting atrocities happen. It's a fucking lose lose lose situation. It's a festering fucking sore and we need to cut ourselves loose before we get pulled into another major clusterfuck. Not that I don't feel sympathy for the people involved, I do, but just about everything we do there seems to be as effective as sticking your dick into a beehive. Get off the oil teat, start sourcing the oil from somewhere else, anything that will get us to just leave.

I'm not advocating total isolationism in regards to the Middle East, but I am advocating that we stop acting like world police. It's clear that when we set ourselves up for that role people find offense with absolutely everything we do. Leave Embassies and embassy security forces unless asked to leave, but that's it. If someone else wants to take up the mantel of "Middle East life support" let them, we don't need to waste anymore lives, money, and time in the Middle East. Hell, maybe they'll work something out, maybe they won't, but it shouldn't be our role anymore.

[Poison Tree]

I'd say the biggest problem is that Palestinians have been taught that Hamas is the only effective advocate they have--a group Israel will not even pretend to negotiate with (they've only been pretending to talk to Fatah for years). Settlements have been completely withdrawn from Gaza yet keep spreading in the west bank. Fatah tried to negotiate and got worse than nothing--not even a continuation of the status quo but a resumption of settlement expansions--Hamas captures one Israeli soldier and trades him for more than 1000 prisoners. Add to that Hamas' charity work and perceived lack of corruption and it is no wonder they beat Fatah in election(s) and, in 2005 at least, held a 39 point advantage over Fatah in opinion polls. There was really no choice but to bring Hamas into the government which was seized upon as an excuse to put the peace talks out of their misery.

[Nam]

You kind of stop caring about Israel when they start bombing hospitals and facilities catered to the disabled:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/07/12/israel-attacks-center-for-disabled-and-mosque-gaza/84fZNajvnJ7h2Q9n1SuhXO/story.html

-Nam

[stromboli]

You kind of stop caring about Israel when they start bombing hospitals and facilities catered to the disabled:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/07/12/israel-attacks-center-for-disabled-and-mosque-gaza/84fZNajvnJ7h2Q9n1SuhXO/story.html

-Nam

I'm not defending anybody, but Hamas and other militant Islamic groups are known to set up and launch from facilities like that and then make sure the media gets an eyeful of what the bad Israelis do.

When I was a Christian, I had a friend who was a Messianic Jew. He had relatives in Jerusalem. He had access to Jewish based news media. the fact is that many, many atrocities were committed against the Jew that never made it to mainstream media. He told me he could prove that more than 20 acts of terrorism were committed for every reprisal. Every coin has 2 sides. The Islamists are very good at manipulating the media. I take everything with a grain of salt that comes from standard media sources. It is a mistake to assume, without knowing all the facts, that the Israelis are the evil monsters the media makes them out to be. However bad the Israelis might be, they have reasons for what they do.

[Nam]

Hey, I'm not saying militants wouldn't do that but is it the fault of the hospital who is trying to care for the injured? Should they bomb such a place? There are so many targets that Israel has, a hospital shouldn't be one of them even if the "bad guys" are there.

And Israel isn't innocent in anything; when they kill women and children they cease being innocent. Just like when the US or any other country does it.

-Nam

[Shiranu]

You take every news with a grain of salt, but you are sure 'how bad Israelis might be, they have reason for what they do'?

Yes, that is what I believe. Same as I believe for every action Hamas takes, good or bad, there is a reason behind it. Now, do I agree with those reasons being valid? Yes and no, it depends on which one they present.

And your idea of Israeli policy is shaped by what? Fucking American media reporting on an ally?

I'm going to be honest... I have seen almost zero American coverage of Israel. Until I did some researching of it on my on, I didn't even really have any grasp that anything of any importance even happened there. The little bit I knew about them was that they were "child killers" and "the second apartheid state", and for the first... at least year and half, if not more... I was the one on the forum arguing about how evil Israel was vs people like PR and some other dude. And even then I still think alot of the stuff they do is really fucked up.

If you are going to keep on arguing against them, fine... I haven't read other people's posts for the most part in this thread so I don't know what they are saying. But stop fucking throwing my name in there like I am arguing some cut-and-paste American media argument for why Israel is great and we should be sucking their knobs and that I am sitting here all, "YAY LETS BOMB HOSPITALS", because when you do that it is clear as fuck to me you have not read a single thing I have posted and just are saying, "LOL U R MURICAN', SO CLEARLY U HATEZ DA PALESTINES!".

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Save your bullshit. Your name was included because of your approval.

I talked about massive media manipulation going on in the US for decades and how the culture and opinions are shaped by that. I talked about policies. In your case, I clearly even pointed out that you are perfectly able to evaluate any other situation in a healthy way when you are not personally connected to it.

But you are right about something. It was a mistake to except from you or any of the Americans to get something beyond "LOL U R MURICAN', SO CLEARLY U HATEZ DA PALESTINES!" out of all this what I am saying when their country's policy and massive ignorance is criticised. Because that's the limit. That's the best one can get from this culture. So that is my foolishness and I am trying to remedy that right now the best way, trust me.

On the other hand, some American member writing to nuke the nations in the Middle East out of existence is a very casual normal thing.

Shoe, you forgot to take your Prozac again.

[Berati]

You don't have anything to offer beyond a few cock sucking politician lines which you keep repeating over and over again. oh and you still don't have a clue what is the issue here.

The issue appears to be your hatred.

It's like this.
You're not special.
You're not smarter than anyone here.
You don't possess any secret knowledge that no one else has access to.
You are manipulated by the media to the same extent as everyone else. If you can see through it... so can anyone else.
You're not special.

I live in the Middle East. My life, my family's and loved ones' lives or hundreds of millions of other people's lives are not something to be annihilated

So use your head and consider that the jews feel the same way when muslims promise their annihilation.

[aitm]

*Mod*- Lets all take a breath before we start to really throw turds at each other. Much conversation has been in the tower about trying very hard to re-establish a more civil forum. We shall implement that as of now. There has been some great point and counter..lets keep it as civil as we can please, but we are not above putting someone on the sideline for a few days. Be careful with the next responses- aitm

[Nam]

The issue appears to be your hatred.

Hatred of all Americans; no matter what they know, or believe.

Which is fine. Seems Stromboli hates all Muslims because they believe that if people would just wipe out the Middle East (minus Israel, I am sure) that it'll solve all the problems in that region. It just means Israel would gain more property, and the Muslim population in Africa and Asia (that wasn't effected) would blame Israel (and the US) and go to war.

If you're for Israel you hate Muslims.
If you're not for Israel you are an antisemite.

Lose/lose.

-Nam