Should America support Israel?

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

In 2008, up to 27th Dec., the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killed no-one. In return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza.

I don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses,  kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.

It is a nation that stole its land through military force.  I hear so many evangelicals and fundamentalists claiming that we have to give money to Israel because the Bible says "bless israel and you shall be blessed, curse israel and you shall be cursed".  What a shitcrock!

now the Palestinians are imprisoned in the shithole Gaza Strip and forced west as israelis keep expanding into the west bank.  Without America (and others) funding Israel the nation wouldnt exist.

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

Just to make it clear, Im not blowing hamas!  Theres no justification for killing innocent people or terrorism.  Despite what Netanyahu wants you to think, Not all Palestinians are terrorists!

[Shiranu]

I don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses,  kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.

Me neither, I think Israel should stop that.

It is a nation that stole its land through military force.

Oh, you mean like the land they bought peacefully from Arab landowners in the late 30s-40's that the owners had zero problem with taking their money for the land? Do you mean the land they gained in 48' when they legally declared themselves a country and had their neighbours invade them from 3 sides? Or perhaps you mean the war they gained the most out of, the Six Day War, where Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq massed troops on the Israeli border and then got their asses handed to them? Of course Israel gave the majority of the land they took BACK to Egypt, but still... they owned it for a little while, right?

Or maybe you mean the Yom Kippur War, when Egypt and Syria, with support of Iraq and Saudi Arabia, invaded them AGAIN, this time a surprise attack during one of their Holy Days. Of course not much land traded hands this time, so that's nice. Or the 1982 Lebanon War, which was a response to the previous 10 years of artillery and missles being launched into Israel out of South Lebanon. But I am sure if Mexico allowed drug lords to shoot missiles into Phoenix, El Paso, So. Cal, Texas for 10 years straight, the United States would be the bad guy for retaliating, yes?

There were of course the Intifada, where Palestinians went on Israeli killing fests which then lead the Israeli military to go into their territory and fuck them up.

But please, tell me more about how they "stole" that land from those poor, innocent people through military force.

You want to say they stole, and are stealing, land through the settlements, I 100% agree with you. But don't come here with that bullshit narrative that Israel is some super power that just steam-rolled poor little ol' farmers and defenseless women and children with their tanks and airplanes and bombs and just declared themselves the new power in the region.

Without America (and others) funding Israel the nation wouldnt exist.

They did quite fine without us; when they declared their independence, the Arab League was rocking weapons, tanks and airplanes sold to them by the Allied Forces (predominately France and England).

Now, do I think we should support them? Not particularly, no. If they want to buy weapons from us, I am okay with that, and maybe give them a discount because of the fact they are one of the few "free" (relatively) countries in the region, but in terms of just giving them handouts...nah.

There are all sorts of numbers to deaths on both side, so take this as you will...

Israeli's killed since 48' - 24,845 Arabs - 90,785

Note that is including the Arab Leagues invasions of Israel; and indeed the majority of those fatalities (70,000 of them, roughly) came during the War of Independence, The Six Day War, The Yom Kippur War and the First Lebanon War... all of which were instigated by the Arab League.

If you want someone to blame for innocent Palestinians being killed, blame the Arab League... not Israel. They are the one's on the crusade to drive the "Jewish Dogs back into the ocean". They are the one's that refuse to allow Palestinian refugees into the country or get citizenship (Jordan and I believe Egypt have recently changed that policy). They continue to treat Palestinian refugees as second-class citizens for their own political agendas, and finally they are the one's who insure that the Palestinian government is run by fanatics who have no desire for peace through their funding of terrorist organizations like Hamas (Hezbollah a bit different, seeing as they are funded by Iran).

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

I liked your post shiranu.  Very thoughtfull despite my disagreeing with you

in the PBS documentary called the 50 years war, it said that the six day war killed fifteen thousand Arabs. curious where you got the 70000 figure?

will be back with more

I liked your post too ds

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

What sort of people make up the Israeli military who, when seeing a child's face look out of a window,. they blow the child's brains out.  If you.watch that pbs doc I mentioned you will see Israeli soldiers talk about being ordered to throw a grenaded through the window of each Palestinian house.

Drunkenshoe speaks the truth

Find a first world nation that practices more segregation and racism than Israel.  They have the Bible justifying their actions as well.

Read the racist talmud while you are at it.

Israel is a Zionist military dictatorship.  Yet they have our sympathy

In israels defense, they protested Sharon's involvement in the refugee butchery.  I give them props for that.

[Shiranu]

in the PBS documentary called the 50 years war, it said that the six day war killed fifteen thousand Arabs. curious where you got the 70000 figure?

That was over the 4 major wars, not just 6dw.

So, they kick Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses and kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them without any military force? But they need nuclear weaponry, because everyone in the region wants to annihilate them.

This is again a narrative that simply never happened in large scale, so sure why not.

The majority of Israeli land (that wasn't bought, the HUGE majority of current Israel) was gained during the multiple wars the Arab League declared against them with the sole purpose of killing every Jew and pushing them back into the ocean (off of land they 95% legally acquired before 48). If 4 countries invade you at the same time, I honestly feel you have the right to keep some of the land you won while defending and pushing them back, especially since they otherwise faced no consequences from the international community. That seems more than fair in reparation towards having an entire region gang up on you to kill you because you were of a different race and religion.

Oh, and that land that was taken?... yeaaaaah, most of that has been returned...

Could you please tell me, how does Israel gain land without using any military force or US support?

I never said they didn't gain land without military force, I said they didn't do the majority of it through using their military to run off unarmed farmers and civilians from their land; the majority of it was gained after being invaded by a collation of Arab forces. As for US support, they had already won their first war against an ethnic cleansing.

Are you really sure what you feel about this?

Pretty sure, yeah. I am not one for arguing against historical truths, the historical truth in this case being that the Arab League invaded Israel multiple times with the single goal of carrying out an ethnic cleansing.

I have never seen so much bullshit in one place.

Sorry I annoyed you by making you see all the 'bullshit' of just how many ethnic cleansing wars the Arab League carried out against Israel. Kinda makes the whole narrative of Israel being the big bad bully look pretty silly, like saying the Bosnians who fought against Slobodan Milosevic were the bullies and Milosevic the victim...

AND other have been there what?

Let's see... the majority of them, 3-4 generations. The Arab League sponsored huge numbers of families to move into the legal land that they had acquired, and later promised families that they could keep the land they took from the Jews in 48'. The region before both Jewish and Arab immigration, which there was alot of following the are being left by the English and French, was very... VERY sparsely populated.

Of course, the Arab League then refused to let them regain their citizenship when the war was over, and let's not forget the hundreds of thousands of Israel who came into the country because the Arab League countries began killing their communities that had been in Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc. for hundreds, some over a thousand, of years... but those refugees don't fit the anti-Israel agenda, so who cares that there were mass killings going on in the Muslim countries towards Jews?

yeah, Israel has nothing to do with a crusade, and our evidence is that they are not talking about it openly.

Oh, right... I forgot that time when Israel and... uh... um... Israel teamed up against Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, Iran to an extent)... invaded their countries and said, "The whole reason we are doing this is to bury every last Arab in the desert, to leave their bodies rotting in the streets of Mecca and Medina and Rabat and Baghdad and Amman for the dogs to eat".

That sure was a terrible time in Israeli history when they did that... 4 times...

Oh, wait...

What the fuck are you talking about really?

The hypocrisy of this statement is astounding, considering my posts were backed up by historical events, yours... eh... well...

Israel is a Zionist military dictatorship

I wouldn't go so far as to say military dictatorship, but I would agree that the current government is Zionist run (the party use to be classified as a terrorist organization, so I feel they have no right to be elected) and shows little sign of stopping Israel's crimes. However I would argue that their main weapon against the Palestinians now is settlements and segregation rather than military power outright.

What sort of people make up the Israeli military who, when seeing a child's face look out of a window,. they blow the child's brains out.  If you.watch that pbs doc I mentioned you will see Israeli soldiers talk about being ordered to throw a grenaded through the window of each Palestinian house.

Same type of people who make up any other military; you follow that order, or you yourself end up with a bullet in the back of the head of the rest of your life in jail.

To counter; what sort of people hide behind those same kids to shoot at Israelis, that strap bombs to those kids and send them onto crowded buses, that hide in those houses and launch rockets across the border?

[stromboli]

Those of us who have studied history might have a slightly different view, but you really ought to educate yourself. I posted a thread on here about how the world changed after WW1. Might start there.
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5393.0

And read about the Balfour Declaration and shit like that there. You might also remember that the so-called Holy Land belonged to the Jews for centuries before Palestine was even a word. You can find reasons to hate or side with either side, but the concept that the Jews just marched in and took over isn't exactly accurate.

You might discover in your reading that Palestine exists today because (1) every other nation in the Middle east kicked the refugees out that became Palestine and the Jews let them stay where other countries wouldn't, because they themselves were refugees. And (2) that over decades, hundreds of miiltary and terrorist attacks have been launched from Palestine against Israel. In the present term they might be overly aggressive, but long term they have been given plenty of motivation to do so.
Before you come off like an Archie Bunker bigot, please try to see the big picture.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Turn the whole Middle East to glass.

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

I speak of a countries atrocities and that makes me an archie bunker bigot?  Reminds me of those who consider those who dont like obama racist.

Find a first world nation that practices more racism and segregation than Israel.  I wonder how much bloodshed took place in Palestine before the creation of israel?  Something to think about.

A lot of good the nation has done.

I know itis more complicated than a bunch of jews showing up to a foreign country and kicking everyone out.  Dont tell me I spoke falsehoods.  They are guilty of the atrocities I mentioned.

Also, fuck hamas!  Fuck terrorism and the slaying of innocent s done by israelis and arabs.

If some dipshit from mexico fired homemade rockets into Texas, does that justify a military operation into Mexico that kills over a thousand people (more than half of them being children and women?)

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

In great britain guy Fawkes Night, (Nov. 5th), there were more casualties from fireworks than there had been all year in Israel from Hamas rockets. In 2008 not one Israeli was killed by these Hamas rockets before the Israelis slaughtered over 1000 Palestinians most of them innocent. 

Turn the whole Middle East to glass.

Mind telling me how to do that?  Ill get right on if!

[Jason78]

Mind telling me how to do that?  Ill get right on if!

You'll need a fairly large nuclear device (ideally several), and a large quantity of sand.

[SGOS]

In trying to understand the conflict, I've come to the conclusion that there are no saints on either side, and each side would like to claim victimhood and gain the sympathy of the rest of the world.  This is a feud, and it's fueled by hatred, not by reason, with each side saying their hatred is justified, but the other side's hatred is not.  So who really started it?  Is that important?  Does it make much difference?  Each side will look back to some atrocity that suits their argument, and say this is where it started.  I've seen 4th graders act this way, except put this type of reasoning and conflict resolution in the hands of full blown adults with deadly weapons, and the result is death and destruction.

This is a good thing for industries in the West that manufacture weapons of destruction.  It's the life blood of capitalism and creates jobs.  And for countries that produce these weapons, it adds to the economy. 

The whole thing is really fucked up.

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

In the 18 months, up to 1st May, 2002, Israeli terrorists have killed approximately 1,200, Palestinians, (now probably 1,600 - 1,800, up to 12th May 2002). They have used American tanks, American helicopter gunships, American warplanes, and American missiles against civilians. In the same period, in response to the Israeli killings, Palestinian suicide bombers have killed approximately 200 Israelis.Ariel Sharon oversaw the slaughter of over 800 Palestinian civilians, mostly women & children, in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in South Beirut in 1982.In Jenin the Israeli army used bulldozers to crush house in which civilians sheltered, the Israelis used civilians as human shields when they attacked Palestinians and checked for booby traps.

These acts fall within the definition of war crimes.Israel has developed weapons of mass destruction and has over 200 nuclear weapons, and the USA has done nothing about it.The government of U.S.A. has funded and still funds and arms the Israeli terrorists. This year, 2002, USA government is giving Israel $2,000,000,000 in military aid, that's an awful lot of tanks, helicopter gunships, warplanes, missiles etc.etc. that's an awful lot of dead Palestinians, and that's nothing compared the previous years.

 Oh the nation of Israel doesnt live on stolen land:

[Jmpty]

The answer to the question is no.

[shortbusgangsta (OP)]

Lets see how much the usa donated to Israel so that they could slaughter the under equipped impoverished and usually unarmed Palestinians.

in 1990 to 2000, the US provided Israel with $7.2bn worth of weaponry and military equipment, including: Equipment, Cost (per unit) Fighter planes237 F-16 Fighting Falcons, $34.3m (each!)98 F-15 Eagles, $38m50 F-4E Phantoms, $18.4mHelicopters42 AH-64 Apache Attacks, $14.5m57 Cobra Attacks, $10.7m25 Blackhawks, $11mMissilesAGM 65 Mavericks, $17,000-$110,000AGM 114 Hellfires, $40,000Aim 7 Sparrows, $125,000Aim 9 Sidewinders, $84,000Aim 120B Amraams, $386,000Harpoon anti-ship missiles, $720,000. . And a few Freebies The US also gives weapons and ammunition free of charge. Between  1994 and 2001 this included: 64,744 M-16A1 rifles,2,469 M-204 grenade launchers,1,500 M-2 .50 yet calibre machine gunsand.30 calibre,.50 calibre,20mmammunitionSource: World

Policy Institute. Research department: Linda MacDonald
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

From 1976 to 2001, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.

In  case the print on the 3 maps of Israel above are too small, the.map to the left shows the tiny jewish presence as the white dots and the Palestinians as green, in israel in 1946.

The second batch shows how much land israelis Conquered with military force in 1947.  The map to the right shows how littleland was left for the Palestinians by the year 2000 as jewish settlements continued to illegally expand.

the Bible permits God's chosen people and nation Israel to commit genocide against the other nations. yes in the Old Testament, the Israelis repeatedly annihilated pagan cities or rather those who were not Jews.  they were permitted to kill men women children and even and the animals.so now evangelicals feel obliged to give a shit ton of money to Israel. they believe that by doing they will be blessed. All those billions of dollars that our government gave t to Israel does not include all the money given to Israel by those who embrace the Bible as the Word of God.

what we have also seen on this site is that it is not just evangelicals that favor or at least are on the side of Israel, but atheists as well.  why couldn't the Jewish state have been somewhere where it would have cost much less blood shed or loss of lives.  Maybe New York or any other place.  So many other places in the world that we could have given the Jews their state. Why do we choose Palestine the Holy Land?  Biblical basis.  It was "promised" to them by God