Author Topic: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure  (Read 6401 times)

Offline AllPurposeAtheist (OP)

America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« on: June 12, 2014, 01:55:53 PM »
http://m.thenation.com/article/180175-america-war-record-unparalleled-failure
TheNation's Tom Englehardt makes a damned good case of why US military is by far the biggest failure of all time despite being richer than any nation on earth including the nation funding it.
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Offline SGOS

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 02:46:22 PM »
http://m.thenation.com/article/180175-america-war-record-unparalleled-failure
TheNation's Tom Englehardt makes a damned good case of why US military is by far the biggest failure of all time despite being richer than any nation on earth including the nation funding it.


Quote
1. No matter how you define American-style war or its goals, it doesn't work. Ever.

2. No matter how you pose the problems of our world, it doesn't solve them. Never.

3. No matter how often you cite the use of military force to "stabilize" or "protect" or "liberate" countries or regions, it is a destabilizing force.

4. No matter how regularly you praise the American way of war and its "warriors," the US military is incapable of winning its wars.

5. No matter how often American presidents claim that the US military is "the finest fighting force in history," the evidence is in: it isn't.

Congress needs to have a discussion on these points.  Americans are still remembering the glory of World War II, and haven't noticed that none of our wars have gone that way for the last 75 years.

Offline AllPurposeAtheist (OP)

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 03:02:51 PM »
 Congress won't because congress enriches itself on the proceeds of such folly. The MIC dumps billions into campaign coffers and of course every plane, every boat and every fucking shoestring worn on military boots are made in every single voting district BAR NONE. It's JOBS JOBS JOBS.
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Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2014, 12:32:27 PM »
Congress won't because congress enriches itself on the proceeds of such folly. The MIC dumps billions into campaign coffers and of course every plane, every boat and every fucking shoestring worn on military boots are made in every single voting district BAR NONE. It's JOBS JOBS JOBS.

"JOBS JOBS JOBS" is just a great big fig leaf everybody keeps falling for. Smoke & mirrors.
They – the puppeteers, the multi-billionaires – couldn't care less about jobs IRL.
What they are really interested in is war contracts and war profits = milking the tax payer dry.

Members of Congress, the Feds, the cops, the justice system, and the media are only their executive puppets. Corruption incarnate.
Democracy in 'the land of the free' is just a galaxy-sized sad joke. 'Voters' have no power whatsoever.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 12:46:45 PM by Mandingo »

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2014, 12:52:56 PM »
Ah, this explains why the USofA collapsed, like the USSR.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2014, 04:23:20 PM »
Ah, this explains why the USofA collapsed, like the USSR.

Matter of time.
But inevitable.
First the USA outcompeted the USSR with the arms race, so that the USSR went bankrupt. They couldn't keep up spending. And then there was civil war. Remember Yeltsin on top of a tank beleaguering the parliament? It's pure luck – and the fact that the Russian populace didn't have weapons – that that civil war was doused so quickly and without great mayhem.

Now the USA is busy outcompeting (= overspending) itself. Remember Bush's 13 TRILLION national debt (that is still hanging over all American citizens' heads for the next 2/3 centuries)?
Consequence: there will be civil war. In a country with nearly 300 million fire arms in the hands of the rabble.
Imagine the destruction and misery for the millions of innocent bystanders.

Make a note.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 04:40:51 PM by Mandingo »

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 06:58:41 PM »
Matter of time.
But inevitable.
Sorry, but I'm a historian. I'll just wait and see.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 08:55:15 PM »
Sorry, but I'm a historian. I'll just wait and see.

Then you haven't learned from history, and are obviously condemned to make the same mistakes again.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2014, 07:51:37 PM »
I think we lost those wars because everyone knew they were farces. Restricted wars, not total war. WWII was the last total war.
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Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2014, 07:59:43 PM »
Then you haven't learned from history, and are obviously condemned to make the same mistakes again.
Or I've learned enough to not make silly assertions.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Nam

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Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2014, 08:17:35 PM »
Actually, I think the US military is effective, the people behind the military (politicians, citizens) usually are not. Winning isn't difficult, what is difficult is stabilization afterward which Americans seem to not want to participate in.

Vietnam could have been a win for the US if they didn't leave as abruptly as "we" did. There was actually some stabilization in South Vietnam, and its own military had over a million soldiers while North Vietnam had quite a bit less than that but Americans had enough of the war, the loss of life, etc., and wanted out, and so Nixon ended it and South Vietnam fell apart because they still needed the backing of the US. Look at North Korea, we're still there but we left Vietnam.

Americans (for the most part) like to believe they won WWII, but, there were many other countries already fighting, and all the US did was help shorten the war, especially with Japan by using atomic bombs. The war with Japan, from what I've read over the years, would have carried on til about 1947-1950 -- so, was it really that necessary to bomb them? Most say "yes", few say "no".

The US has an effective military, it has an ineffective country.

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Offline frosty

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2014, 03:33:53 AM »
I think we lost those wars because everyone knew they were farces. Restricted wars, not total war. WWII was the last total war.

I get your point, but I wonder if the family members of those killed, maimed, detained, tortured or displaced as a result of said wars would agree on the 'restricted' part. I don't think they would.

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2014, 09:41:59 AM »
Sorry, but I'm a historian. I'll just wait and see.

No offense, but as a historian you should be well aware that ALL empires fall.

Matter of time.
But inevitable.
First the USA outcompeted the USSR with the arms race, so that the USSR went bankrupt. They couldn't keep up spending. And then there was civil war. Remember Yeltsin on top of a tank beleaguering the parliament? It's pure luck – and the fact that the Russian populace didn't have weapons – that that civil war was doused so quickly and without great mayhem.

Now the USA is busy outcompeting (= overspending) itself. Remember Bush's 13 TRILLION national debt (that is still hanging over all American citizens' heads for the next 2/3 centuries)?
Consequence: there will be civil war. In a country with nearly 300 million fire arms in the hands of the rabble.
Imagine the destruction and misery for the millions of innocent bystanders.

Make a note.

In regards to the latter 2/3 of this post, I believe(based off of no evidence what so ever), that you are incorrect. A modern civil war in the U.S. would be squashed quite quickly. Yes American civilians have plenty of guns, however the U.S. military has more(and tanks, jets, E.O.D.'s, etc) It would be a brutal conflict, but a short one.

However most empires fall due to outside forces, not internal. This is the route that I think that the U.S. is on. But I don't believe that it will be a complete collapse, Im leaning more toward another country(or collective of countries) coming up as the dominate economic power, with the U.S. remaining as the big dog(militarily speaking).

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Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2014, 09:44:29 AM »
No offense, but as a historian you should be well aware that ALL empires fall.
Yep, but when and why are always interesting questions.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 10:09:43 AM »
No offense, but as a historian you should be well aware that ALL empires fall.

In regards to the latter 2/3 of this post, I believe(based off of no evidence what so ever), that you are incorrect. A modern civil war in the U.S. would be squashed quite quickly. Yes American civilians have plenty of guns, however the U.S. military has more(and tanks, jets, E.O.D.'s, etc) It would be a brutal conflict, but a short one.

However most empires fall due to outside forces, not internal. This is the route that I think that the U.S. is on. But I don't believe that it will be a complete collapse, Im leaning more toward another country(or collective of countries) coming up as the dominate economic power, with the U.S. remaining as the big dog(militarily speaking).

Your Friendly PhD

Pretty much this. But I disagree on one point- collapse comes from internal sources as much as outer. The wars we fight now are as much fabrication as real, simply to maintain the illusion of the need for a gigantic super military. The oligarchy that now runs congress and most of our economy is based on not only a military industrial complex but a stubborn unwillingness to change to newer renewable resources and rethink the grand old capitalism in a new way. Our infratructure, both physically and economically, is old outmoded and crumbling.

A civil war is in no one's best interest. Regardless of the noise made by various radical right wing/left wing pundits, the society as a whole is too complacent to think in those terms. we see the erosion of the middle class, but overall we are still living better lives than people like the Syrians or other countries driven to revolution by loss of resources, jobs and so forth.