Relying on Allah

[no-excuses (OP)]

With Muslims, it is seldom that you see any positive demonstration of any sort for civil rights, human rights or general society issues. But you can clearly seeing them protesting and rioting against the slightest insult to their religion and the prophet. I think the reasons are obvious for that, Islam is, already a dictating religion with a bunch of human rights violations. However, my point here is not to expose Islam in that area (that will need a lot more than just a thread in this forum).

Currently there is an uncovered (by media) civil war in Iraq, we all know part of it from the news. Anyway, In the North-east of Iraq, there is the city of Mosul, an ancient city, which is actually beautiful. So I studied in the university of Mosul and I have a  lot of good memories there and i still in contact with many friends there through FB. Al-Qaeda is now fighting vigorously the Iraqi army in that city and there are, as usual, many civilian casualties and property destruction plus fleeing from the city. My friends( from inside Mosul, and outside) are posting the news minute by minute on their FB pages to let everyone know what is happening. What amazed me is almost all the posts are basically prayers to Allah to save the city. Some people posting verses of Quran and demand everyone to say Doa'a so Allah will intervene and save the children who are dying there. They literally asking Allah to stop it, Nobody is thinking of doing something productive other than the useless praying of Allah, In fact, they consider that as a very effective way in being a part of the solution.
Is that denial? what is that? they know, according to islam, that Allah is responsible for everything happening to us, Why do they ask him to stop something he/she/it started.
I'm talking here about educated people posting that crap, people who are functioning individuals in their society and most of them are physicians and surgeons, they represent science the scientific entity in the society, yet all they do is asking the almighty to spare their beloved city..

It pisses me off how people could be deceived by religion. It is a very good reason to be against religion and advocate against it instead of being neutral and just an atheist. Because of their religion nobody is even trying to reach these families to help them get out of those parts of city where it is dangerous, they just fuckin rely on Allah.  

[Hijiri Byakuren]

The one thing I can say in favor of Islam is that at least it's transparent. The name of the religion is literally the Arabic word for submission.

[SGOS]

Yes, it's a waste of time, but as is the nature of war, your friends may be unable to do anything about it.  So they pray because they have been told Allah has the power to save them.  Of course he never shows up to actually intervene, but you can bet your boots, he's probably really angry with the enemy.  He's probably steaming mad, yet he doesn't show up.  But he's on your side, even if he doesn't do anything.  Such are the natures of all powerful gods.

[SGOS]

According to NBC News Mosul has fallen and is now in the hands of insurgents.  It looks like a 30 day state of emergency will be put into effect.

[no-excuses (OP)]

According to NBC News Mosul has fallen and is now in the hands of insurgents.  It looks like a 30 day state of emergency will be put into effect.

That is unfortunately true.

[frosty]

I get your point, but at the same time I do not. Religious people rely on [insert name of deity here] all the time, I don't even find it worth commenting on anymore. It's so elementary it's ridiculous.

Also, I hate to be an armchair general here, but your post is fundamentally incorrect. There is no such thing as "Al Qaeda" in Iraq; they do not exist anymore. The group you're actually talking about is ISIS, they are dangerous, determined, and got lots of money and weapons. They are basically bulldozing the Iraqi security forces right now and nobody can stop them.

[no-excuses (OP)]

I get your point, but at the same time I do not. Religious people rely on [insert name of deity here] all the time, I don't even find it worth commenting on anymore. It's so elementary it's ridiculous.

Also, I hate to be an armchair general here, but your post is fundamentally incorrect. There is no such thing as "Al Qaeda" in Iraq; they do not exist anymore. The group you're actually talking about is ISIS.

ISIS it is, well you are right, religious people do rely on their god all the time, my issue is should that be addressed to them? Should atheist interfere in that concept, by questioning why god is not doing anything about it? How come innocent children dying, how your merciful Allah allows that to happen? Of course they will come with all kind of explanation and the most infamous one is that "god works in mysterious ways".
Usually in these situations like in this case were my friends are actually directly been affected by the situation, they are vulnerable, the whole religion is vulnerable to questioning and why the peaceful Allah is not interfering despite the all prayers. I believe if you challenge those people more aggressively some of them at least will weaken. That was the whole point of the post.


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[frosty]

ISIS it is, well you are right, religious people do rely on their god all the time, my issue is should that be addressed to them? Should atheist interfere in that concept, by questioning why god is not doing anything about it? How come innocent children dying, how your merciful Allah allows that to happen? Of course they will come with all kind of explanation and the most infamous one is that "god works in mysterious ways".
Usually in these situations like in this case were my friends are actually directly been affected by the situation, they are vulnerable, the whole religion is vulnerable to questioning and why the peaceful Allah is not interfering despite the all prayers. I believe if you challenge those people more aggressively some of them at least will weaken. That was the whole point of the post.


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All I can really say is that if you want to put yourself through that stress and hardship, then go ahead. At most the results you will see are minimal at best, and you will walk away feeling bitter towards the people you tried to change. Trust me. I've been through it. So have others. It's really not worth it.

Religion involves a great deal of mental self-convincing, and the human experience shows that when people self-convince themselves of something, anything, it is extremely difficult, almost impossible to change their minds. Now take what I just said and apply that to billions of self-convinced humans who rely on their faith every single day. It is an absolutely astronomical task and if I could give you any advice it would be to not put yourself through such misery.

Another factor within the Middle East is the culture of fear that permeates everything. Just like people over here dress a certain way to fit in, perhaps those people post publicly about religion on Facebook to fit in as well? I know about some of the stories, of how family and culture literally makes sure that a person is following their faith and if they don't, there is bad consequences for them. So combine the stubbornness of humanity with a rising militant Islamist trend and a culture of regression and you will see why the situation is the way it is today.

[SGOS]

I believe if you challenge those people more aggressively some of them at least will weaken. That was the whole point of the post.

Your facebook friends are in crisis right now, and people in crisis don't tend to be rational.  During periods of frustration, people are least likely to change their behavior.  Instead of thinking, they revert to past behavior, even if that behavior is ineffective.  I've actually seen studies on this years ago in psychology.  The US invasion of Iraq is an example of clouded social hysteria.  The majority of voters were reeling from the 9-11 attacks.  No matter that much of the administrations propaganda was clearly false and poorly substantiated, or that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, it was easy to manipulate Americans into a war during the hysteria.  People don't think clearly in crisis.

And I agree with Frosty.  My guess is that a lot of people are going to exhibit praying behavior in public to avoid being ostracized even if they might have a chink in their religious armor.  There will be the isolated person here and there that could be approached and could see the problem rationally, but the vast majority will still be deeply entrenched in the current behavior and religion.  I think you will have better luck after the crisis is over and people can look back and view the situation with less emotion, fear, and frustration, but even then, it will be a tough sell.

Are you in Iraq right now?  If you are, I wouldn't rock the boat and bring down a load retribution on my head.  Atheism does not need martyrs.  And nobody gains anything from being one.